Report from survey team in Iraq says no trace of WMDs have been found.

Great Debates
21

Oh, come off it, Brutus. Do you think anyone but a diehard true believer is going to go for this shift the blame BS? Yes, it is everyone else’s fault. That may work when one is 8 years old but I think we ought to be beyond that now. We’re grownups who can admit our mistakes.

Do you have any evidence to show us that the CIA was unable to determine the extent of Iraq’s WMD programs because of changes due to the Church Commission? Also, if the problem really was a lack of enough good intelligence, then why didn’t we wait to see what the weapons inspectors turned up? The problem isn’t that we didn’t know things but that it seems we did know things that just weren’t so. And, we have yet to see compelling evidence that this problem existed primarily in the intelligence community…It seems to have more existed in the Administration’s interpretation of what they were being told. The Administration made up it’s mind in Iraq and wasn’t going to let any facts or logic convince them otherwise. This is a pattern we see them repeating over and over again on domestic and foreign policy matters. These folks aren’t the type who carefully weigh the evidence and decide where it leads them. They are the type who know what they want to do and then use the evidence “selectively” (which is probably euphemistic) to make the case.

22

This isn’t just a “mess” that the U.S. got into.

We’ve spilled a whole lot of blood over there, and now we’re looking for something that was never there in the first place.

Wow. I wonder why the people over there don’t want us?
Yeah, I know there are several other reasons, too.

I feel that what we’ve accomplished is this:

We’ve ousted a tyrant. He was an awful person, who did hideous things to his own people.

Why, do you suppose the Iraqi people feel we are worse tyrants? Maybe because we killed thousands of their sons a whole lot quicker that Saddam did?

In the long run, we’ll probably get someone who has higher aspirations, and will cause even more trouble in an already explosive region.

What’s better? Or worse?

As for GW:
I, being what some here may term a right-wing relgious conservative have no qualms in stating that, as a president, Mr. Bush has fallen very short. I don’t agree with his foreign policy - never have. IMO, he’s one of the worst presidents I’ve ever seen. Being a Christian certainly shouldn’t mean automatic support by other Christians…I’m not a sheep, and I sure would like to believe that others aren’t, either (I’m sure that will call for a quote!)…So far as the economy goes, though…I think that the U.S. would’ve been in dire straights no matter which party was in the whitehouse. The press started talking about recession almost right after Bush started his time as president. Of course, 9/11 has created a shambles, too…

Enough, though…I’ve always felt that GW would be a one term president, and I, for one, am not surprised in the least at the current public opinion of him.

23

You want us to duplicate Mossad? The notoriously pragmatic “we’ll do anything to protect the motherland” Mossad?

You really are a fascist, aren’t you?

24

TVAA:

Are you addressing me?

If you are, I have no idea what you mean!

25

I think TVAA was addressing Brutus.

26

People, people, people!!! We know that Saddham had weapons of mass destruction. He used them on his own people! Colin Powell even said so. Are you calling Colin Powell a liar?*
*More or less actual quote from Scarborough Country.

27

Sure thing, as long as I can get your recipe for Rhumsfeld Giblet Gravy.

28

It’s good to see that even people like Brutus have stepped away from claiming the Bush was right, and can get on to the next natural partisan step of blaming everybody but Bush. Progress!

29

The logic of the Bushies now seems to be: We know Saddam has weapons of mass destruction because he used them against the Kurds and Iran back in 1988. Therefore, he must still have them today and be anxious to use them against the USA. We cannot let this imminent threat go unanswered. Therefore, we MUST invade Iraq before it is too late.

Oh, well. At least the Iraqi people are free. Oh, nevermind.

30

elucidator´:

I’ll be there – with bells on – as well.

I’m bringing the blood pudding. It’s a Swedish specialty, you know.

31

Slightly off topic (well, miles really), but the post by TVAA above brought it to mind:

Is there much commentary state-side on Norman Mailer’s recent comments that the US has now entered a “pre-fascist” state, or has a “pre-fascist atmosphere” about it?

An (admittedly biased) documentary aired on ITV in the UK last week had interviews with many people (all US local government officials or professors) who said they hope he is right (with the ‘pre-‘), because they truly believe the US has already become a fully fledged fascist state. Are views such as these given the time of day in US media?

32

Paul Krugman had a recent article pointing out that this claim that 9/11 is that much of a drag on the economy is highly questionable, to say the least. Sure, it had some mainly short-term effects on travel, the airline industry and the like. However, it also had other stimulative effects by causing a large increase in spending on security, military, etc. So, all in all, it is highly questionable how much you can count 9/11 as an economic drag. (I believe that it was largely World War II that really finally pulled the economy completely out of the depression.)

33

Is anybody volunteering to bring the Canadian bacon?

34

Perhaps not 9/11 alone. However, our being in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the tremendous costs involved in the operations, weapons, etc…

At this point, the “War on terrorism” doesn’t seem to be helping either our economy, or our reputation in the world community.

35

Here, we call it back bacon… unfortunately I’d be early as My Thanksgiving is a month earlier. It doesn’t matter as you see we kept our bacon out of this mess right from the start so we might as well keep it out now.

36

Will this thread become a debate at any point, of just remain liberal chest thumping and back slapping?

37

Would you care to argue that the WMD’s were real?

38

I can bring a Spotted Dick Cheney, and if he ain’t spotted yet he will be by the time I’ve finished with him . . .

39

Well, believe me, I am not saying the way we are going about the “war on terrorism” is a good thing. I am just pointing out that, at least in the way we currently measure economic progress in terms of GDP and the like, the things you talk about as costs are in many ways actually inputs that increase the GDP. You might argue that the re-assignment of resources and personel from other things to this is hurting other parts of the economy but then one has to point out that a recession is generally a situation where resources and personel are being underutilized…i.e, there is excess capacity.

Of course, those of us who think that the GDP is not the best measure of quality of life aren’t big on this fact that wars or a big oil spill that needs lots of cleanup or whatever are counted as economic plusses. But, I think there is no denying that they are. (My point here is to rebut claims by defenders of the President that the fact that the economy isn’t worse than it is given the events of 9/11 are evidence of the wonderous effects of Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy.)

40

Well, if the conservatives on this message board had cogent arguments that they could make that actually took some effort to rebut, we liberals would have less time on our hands for chest thumping and back slapping.