Republican does not equal pro-Second Amendment!

Great Debates
1

A national concealed-carry reciprocity bill - which would allow officially licensed concealed-carry permit holders to carry their firearms in other states that allow CC - in other words, saving the law abiding gun owners untold legal hassles and red tape - just failed to pass.

By two votes.

Among those who voted “Nay” - George Voinovich of Ohio, and my own Dick Lugar of Indiana. Both Republicans.

The bill had a bipartisan majority voting for it - but it failed to attain the 60 votes necessary to get through.

These two Republicans could have saved the bill - which is completely logical and reasonable, and an excellent idea all around - but instead, for whatever reason, they decided to vote against it. Well, I am going to write to Lugar and I am going to let him know how displeased I am at his inaction, and I am going to do my damndest to spread the word among all the Republicans and gun owners that I know here in Indiana that Lugar does not deserve our votes.

Republicans are also responsible for one of the most egregious and stupid anti-gun measures of the 1990s - the Import Ban of '92, which arbitrarily bans any rifles without a “sporting purpose” from being imported from any other country, despite the fact that there are MILLIONS of dirt-cheap and high-quality surplus rifles in former East Bloc countries that have been converted to semi-automatic and which could all be imported here. This ban was the work of George H. Bush and Bob Dole.

Did you know that in FRANCE, you can own a real Russian AK-47 that has been converted to semi-auto only? In America, you can’t. Try to wrap your head around that. For all of the bashing of France by Republicans (which is unbelievably stupid to begin with, since the French have fought heroically in nearly every major war) they actually have better gun laws than the United States when it comes to the ownership of rifles.

███Vive la France!███

and to hell with Яichard Lugaя and George Voinovich.

For God’s sake, Russ Feingold voted in favor of this bill! Russ Feingold is a better friend to gun owners than Dick Lugar!

I swear to God, these things annoy me to no end. There was a great, great opportunity to cut through some of the mass of red tape and bureaucratic bullshit that hinders law-abiding gun owners (and does precisely dick to affect the criminals who will carry their guns anywhere they damn well please regardless of the law) - and two Republican politicians threw cold water on it.

The Second Amendment is not an issue of right or left. It is an issue of right and wrong. Believing in the freedom for all law-abiding Americans to defend themselves and exercise a constitutional right is a liberal value. And you cannot rely on Republicans to stand up for it. They are opportunistic snakes and political prostitutes.

2

Did you also know that different states have different requirements for CCW permits? Someone who qualifies in Alaska may well not qualify in New York. Also, there is no way in hell you’re going to defeat Dick Lugar, but have fun trying.

3

Richard Lugar is my favorite GOP Senator. And he’s older than the Conservative Movement.

4

Wait. Why does it need 60 votes to pass again?

5

I’m just a dumb Canadian, but I’m pretty sure there’s nothing in the Second Amendment about concealed carry. Also, isn’t it up to the States as to what regulations they want to place on concealed carry? How would a federal bill requiring States to recognize each others permits even be constitutional? Part of that whole interstate commerce bs?

6

There was an agreement, that it would.
Personally, I suspect it was set up to fail with the maximum amount of people voting for it, because of that. That is, there was no chance in hell it would pass, but a lot of people can vote for it, just so they can get the credit.

7

I have a CCW, and even I wasn’t in favor of this.

Precisely because of the Lowest Denominator Effect. Billy-Bob Yokel can get a CCW with ZERO qualifications because his cousin is Sheriff, and we should honor it?

Truthfully, I wish we had reciprocity with more states - the web of ‘who honors what’ doesn’t always make a lot of sense. But this wasn’t the answer.

8

I think you spelled “silly bit of political theater” wrong. The Obama Gun Grab!!!11!!oneoneone!! not keeping gun sales up? Not keeping the donations flowing? Not keeping the froth in a proper emulsion? Damn. Let’s make up some ridiculous bill so we can get things moving again.

I wonder how many politicians – on both sides of the aisle – would have also voted to force duly permitted marriages to be recognized across state lines.

Sorry Argent, I think you got punk’d on this one.

9

Bingo, this is just pandering to the gun nuts like Bush pandered to the religious nuts. It’s standard party doctrine nowadays.

10

I have questions about whether interstate CCW is the greatest idea – for example, Florida has self-defense laws that are more akin to shooting first and asking questions later, so I think other states would be right to question whether Floridians who were licensed under those laws would fully understand that they can’t go around blasting every squirrelly looking guy in Connecticut, or whatever.

Be that as it may, there were still 58 votes for a pro-gun amendment. There were more than 60 votes to liberalize DC’s gun laws. How the gun nuts out there can still believe that Obama’s going to take anyone’s guns away should now be labeled pure conspiracy theory.

11

Where can one see a list of who did and didn’t vote for this bill? I’m a bit curious as to how my Senators (both Democrats) voted.

12

Here

Both Baucus and Tester voted for the bill.

13

Interestingly, I also see that Bayh, the Democratic senator from Indiana, voted yea. The political situation in Indiana must be pretty interesting.

14

Spot on. The ridiculous situation in which certain people insist on forcing any state to recognize gun laws from less restrictive states, but insist on protecting states from having to recognize marriage laws from less restrictive states, is indefensibly stupid. It’s childish, like the worst sort of schoolyard jerk changing the rules his way and only his way.

If Massachusetts has to allow gun permits issued in Texas, Texas has to honor marriage licenses issued in Massachusetts.

15

Deal.

Also, from the statement of purpose from the link above:

It looks to me like they’re only granted CCW in the second state if they have a CCW in their state and abide by the rules of the second state. IOW, you can get a CCW in a less restrictive state, but it doesn’t mean you’ll necessarily be able to carry in a more restrictive state, unless I’ve misread it.

16

Are states rights under the 10th amendment an issue of right or wrong?

17

Unless my interpretation is wrong, I don’t see how the 10th amendment really comes into play. Each state would still be fully able to define their requirements for a CCW, and no one would be allowed to carry who doesn’t fulfilly those requirements.

18

I am:

[ul]
[li]A lifetime NRA member[/li][li]A Concealed Handgun Permit holder in my home state[/li][li]The owner of multiple firearms[/li][li]A firm believer in the Second Amendment’s incorporation against the states, and in its protection of an individual right[/li][/ul]

I did not favor this bill.

While each state’s requirements for permitting gun possession cannot be so onerous as to violate the Second Amendment, there’s nothing in the Constitution that gives Congress the power to force one state to accept the CCW standards of another state. Nor is it even a good idea: the citizens of Rhode Island may believe that 16 hours of classroom time is a wise prerequisite for carry concealed, while the citizens of Alaska may simply award the right to anyone over 18. That makes sense too: Alaska and Rhode Island are very different, and each should be entitled to set their own, reasonable rules, with the Second Amendment as a low water mark to prevent outright bans or de facto bans.

19

I’m a moderately liberal Democrat – very liberal on some issues, not so much so on others. And I support the whole Bill of Rights – all ten amendments, including the Second.

And I think what Bricker says here is precisely on target. A law that makes perfect sense in a major metropolitan area may not be anything like right for a place where the nearest law enforcement official is an hour’s travel away – and where the wildlife may not all be fluffy bunnies. State (as opposed to Federal) regulation within the bounds of the Second Amendment makes perfect sense to me.

20

While I agree with your overall conclusion that this was a bad law and shouldn’t have passed, don’t you think Article IV, Section 1 specifically gives Congress this power? If not, why?*

*This isn’t intended to be snark, I’m honestly looking for your reasoning.