Sure, Milossarian. When you can explain why there are overwhelmingly more women and minority senators and congressmen in the Democratic Party.
Milo:
I think the reason that blacks see folks like Powell and Rice as tokenism when Republicans engage in it is because Republicans and Democrats tend to look at some things differently. Democrats favor programs that aid the whole black community, while Republicans are holding up a few black individuals as being representative of how blacks can succeed without such programs. Successful blacks are often seen as Uncle Toms merely because they are successful (unless they are sports stars or entertainers that is), so a highly placed black man is almost excluded from the “black community” by definition.
Since blacks as a population group are skewed toward the lower end of the economic scale, Republican individualism is seen as a de facto form of racism when stacked against social welfare positions espoused by the Democrats. The Democrats don’t even need to really do all that much so long as they act like it. Democrats can say “Sure, we’ll give you Program A, B, and C,” and when it fails in the House they get marks for caring and trying. When Republicans say “Affirmative Action is simply wrong on the face of it,” they are perceived as indifferent to the black community as a whole, if not out-and-out racist, no matter how many individual blacks they promote into high positions.
#^%$%##!! Stupid Bolding!
[quote]
** Bull. Under Affirmative Action, a minority can receive a job or promotion over a white male, even if the white male is more qualified, has more seniority, etc.
That is discrimination based on race. You can put a pretty ribbon on it and some glitter, but that will still be what it is.[/qoute]**
And so can a White woman or a White male in a wheel-chair. In Corporate America, the people I mentioned are minorities, too. So, once again, your assertion is absurd. You keep ignoring the fact that White people benefit from Affirmative Action, too. If all races benefit from something, then it’s not racially based.
Maeglin: I’ll take that as a “no” from you.
wring: I watched Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, SoS Katherine Harris (insert evil organ music here for Democrats), and attorney general Bob Butterworth at a press conference mere days ago, at which all pledged to start a task force to look into all election irregularities in Florida, as well as to look at whether people voting with certain equipment are at a disadvantage to others voting with different equipment elsewhere.
Sounds like they are doing exactly what you suggest, and at the correct time - now that problems have been identified, and after the election.
As for the “road block,” I’ve seen you post this elsewhere. I heard on one of the political TV shows during the Florida election controversy a reference to a Wall Street Journal story that indicated the only road block anyone seemed to know of in the area in question on election night had to do with police searching for a robbery suspect or suspects.
I haven’t been able to find the story on-line, however. The WSJ site forces you to pay to access many of their stories.
If you have information from a credible media source that disputes this, I’d like to see it.
AA is racist and sexist in that it assumes that women and races other than white cannot compete with white males. It assumes that they are less qualified and must therefore be given special opportunities regardless of their abilities. I happen to agree with this policy, basically because the prejudices that were sanctioned in this country by it’s very government have prevented minorities from rising to the levels of their caucasian and male peers over time and leaves a lack of diversity amongst the highest level decision makers and the extremely large and wealthy companies.
However, times they are a changin and I hope that within my lifetime AA will no longer be needed and will appear in my grandchildrens’ history books as a disgraceful response to a disgraceful practice in the United States… i.e. prejudice.
As to why blacks in particular believe in majority that the Democratic Party represents them, I was, by confession at the bottom of my post, being intentionally equal in contemptability to the original post. By government cheese, I meant government cheese which was handed out in urban impoverished zones back in the 70s and 80s. An idiotic response to poverty that assumed that poor black people were too irresponsible to use their welfare checks for food and for calcium for their children, but by handing out actual cheese, they would have to eat it. They couldn’t spend it on liquor or cigarettes or drugs. :rolls eyes I guess cheese has no street value?
As to the long embellished statistics of more white people on welfare than black people…
a. Those numbers include; from some of the comparisons I have seen, social security benefits, which is ridiculous since whites make up more than 2/3 of the U.S. populous and blacks make up less than a quarter.
b. The other comparisons I have seen show that more white people are on welfare than black people. It does not compare percentages but raw numbers, so it is again incorrect.
Any of you who honestly believe that there are more whites in destitute poverty than blacks as a percentage of their individual population, I welcome you to provide evidence of such. I can take you into almost any inner city in the United States and prove the opposite.
I don’t believe either party represents the poor or the rich or the working class; the blacks, the women or the gays. The people choose the Parties based upon their policies and how they weigh the importance of each position with their own preferences. Unfortunately, there is often an inconsistency between the Party’s positions and the People’s knowledge of those positions, which keeps some groups erroneously faithful to the Democratic Party instead of the Party of Inclusion.
(yes I laughed as I typed that sentence)
Maybe the Republicans should ask the Democrats. Consider the following:
-
White Democratic Southerners were responsible for implementing Jim Crow laws.
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Senator Earnest Hollings (D- South Carolina) was instrumental in beginning South Carolina’s Confederate flag flying.
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Lester Maddox and George Wallace (Democratic governors of Georgia and Alabama, respectively) blocked the schoolhouse doors preventing Black students from entering during anti-segregation reforms.
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Dwight D. Eisenhower sent the National Guard to Little Rock in 1957 to ensure the peaceful, landmark integration of Central High School.
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It was liberal Republican judges in the South who implemented Brown vs. Board of Education – thus outlawing Jim Crow
Eisenhower received 60% of the black vote in the election of 1956! I don’t know what happened after that to make the majority of Blacks so dedicated to the Democratic party. It’s just baffling.
**
Emphasis mine. What, a month later and several weeks after a justice department and civil rights investigations have been started? The phrase “a day late and a dollar short” comes to my mind. This is exactly what I’m talking about. At the first mention, the Reps should have been screaming about how wrong it was. Not over a month later, after all the chads had fallen, and their guy was elected.
You know, I’m really tired of this - as you said, you’ve seen me post this before - why the hell didn’t you look at the links provided then? Some of them were off a wire service which doesn’t keep them for long.
At first, there was no explanation about why there were blockades. For quite a while. Now, there seems to be two explanations, one was a police blockade about a specific robbery. And, frankly if that’s what happened, fine and dandy, why weren’t they shouting from the rooftops the next day??? but I’ll let that slide. the other was a ‘routine’ check point for other types of violations, apparently there had been one about a month before. And this one, everyone should have been saying “nope, why election day?”.
For the record, I went back into the threads (all of which you posted on) and copied the sites again: (course they might not work anymore since they were raw news reports - but like I said, they were posted in the other threads you posted on, and worked then)
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/election_blackvote001203.html
http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/dailynews/election_race001208.html
http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/dailynews/election_blackvoters001129.html
This one is from Izzy and includes the statement from the state troopers that they ‘didn’t realize’ that a polling place was nearby and that it was ‘routine’ (not for a robbery). they list #'s of cars stopped etc. but it is the perception of a police force that was the problem, and should have elicited an immediate response and outcry (as it did for the black community). And if you don’t understand why it would be important, then, shrug, I guess you’ll never understand why blacks wouldn’t flock to your party.
http://cache.voter.com/home/news/article/0,1175,2-16569-,00.html
JustAnotherGuy, yes, the percentage of Blacks on welfare is higher than the percentage of Whites on welfare. But talking in raw numbers, more White people would be affected then Black people if welfare was to end.
To the contrary, I believe Affirmative Action assumes that the powers-that-be, in this case White males, can’t be trusted to hire outside of their race and gender. Therein lies one of the problems with Affirmative Action.
I, too, wish for a time when Affirmative Action will no longer be in place. Not because enough White males say ‘Hey, that’s not fair’ but because society’s way thinking has changed to be naturally inclusive.
[slight hijack ahead]
No black person is likely to believe whether true or not, the “looking for a robbery suspect” line.
I’m black and I’d be willing to bet that many blacks have experienced the “you match the description” pretext police departments routinely use when police want to hassle someone. That’s not rhetoric just simple fact. I think I mentioned a similar incident when I first strated posting here, where these same two cops kept pulling me over within feet from my job. Till my boss threatened to sue them on my behalf anyway.
[/end slight hijack]
So, let me see if I got this straight.
During the election, I made reference to the fact that many Republican canvassars in various Florida counties were alleging questionable practices by their Democratic counterparts during hand-counts that benefited Gore.
You said then, “until I see verification of any of these allegations, they don’t amount to a hill of beans.” Well, words to that effect.
Now, however, you say there should have been an “immediate outcry” from Republicans regarding this nebulous police blockade that nobody, nowhere seems to have any specific information on, just some vague allegations? I looked at your links when you posted them before. All that’s there are Jesse Jackson quotes and a couple of individual allegations. Link after link.
As I said, it’s my understanding that the Wall Street Journal article was designed to get to the bottom of the road block allegation, to move beyond the anecdotal and find what facts are out there. Don’t have the article, have never seen it, so I can’t tell you what it said. What people on TV said it said, however, was what I stated in my earlier post.
Other than this mysterious blockade, all of the voting problems, from your own links, sound like they are attributable to antiquated voting procedures and machinery, having more to do with the financial wherewithal of the counties in question than their racial or political makeup.
Harris was adamant in her statements in the press conference I mentioned earlier that if it is found that voters in some counties are being disadvantaged because of their equipment, something will absolutely be done about it to bring them up to the level of other counties. But it was Katherine Harris talking, and she is The Evil One, so never mind.
I know “immediate outcry” is a Democratic specialty. But the correct course of action is investigation, finding of fact and correction of problems for the future. Sounds like that is exactly what is going on, in a bipartisan fashion, in Florida.
And by the way, wring, do you kid yourself with your “I am neither a Republican or a Democrat” line? Cuz you ain’t kiddin’ anybody else. You’ve been pretty firmly down one side of the aisle in your every post for a couple of months, lady.
I voted for Clinton twice, and I voted for a Green Party candidate in the November election. It’s true it’s true. Therefore, I’m not a Republican.
Under your criteria, you have to buy that. Do you?
Uh, no. Affirmative Action assumes that women and minorities do not have an equal opportunity to compete with white males. Period.
You may choose to infer that it’s because they’re “less qualified”; others may choose to infer that it’s because of institutionalized social, economic, or discriminatory institutions and traditions. AA itself simply acknowledges that an imbalance exists, and tries to compensate for it – but it does not assume why the imbalance is there.
Apparently, your question “what should us poor maligned Republicans do?” was rhetorical?
And, Milo as far as MY political background, for President, I’ve voted for Republicans, Democrats and Independants. And, on down the line all the way to Drain Commisioner and U of M board of Regents. I don’t really care if you believe or not. All you’re working with is my posts relative to this election. And, while you continue to spout the Republican party line word for word, I’ve posted to die hard Gore supporters when they were incorrect, inflamatory etc. And, reminded people over and over that once it’s all done, we still have to work together. I’ve yet to see you do that. So while you may have voted Green Party for the Wayne University Board of Regents, in this election, you’ve established yourself as some one who has consistently supported the Republican view, despite evidence to the contrary. (for example your continued support of Ms. Harris, when even Republicans in our state are formulating legislation to outlaw a SoS taking on the campaign role ‘to avoid the appearance of impropriety’, even if they still claim she did nothing wrong) So save the “pot calling the kettle black” speech - it didn’t work the last time you tried to use it either.
RE: "I looked at your links when you posted them before. "
then why did you ask for them again? The specific allegations came from citizens, in several hours of testimony, taking up several hundred pages - those facts were there, the content of the several hundred pages are not. This happened DAYS after the election. The Justice Department and Civil Rights organizations confirmed investigations weeks ago. My question remains “why did it take this long afterward for the State of Florida to say 'gee, we think we should investigate this, too”? It’s a valid and unanswered question. You sidestep this as well.
You go back to other threads to comment on my ‘I’ll wait for the evidence’ line. My words (as I recall them) were “you’ve made these allegations, let’s see the links, and if the allegations only come from party sources, well, we’ll take it with a grain of salt the size of the Detroit salt mines.” Well, let me point out that I’m still waiting for your evidence that showed that one person always called the ballot for Gore. Still waiting. Same standard you issued to me - unbiased news report of citizen complaint - not party hack. I’ve done mine.
The links I gave you included the requested information (yes, Jesse Jackson was there, but so were hundreds of citizens making the complaints) and were from news agencies. The last link was one Izzy provided, and detailed the ‘routine’ checkpoint, held on election day. That’s one that any public official should have balked at. Why would the State Police do a ‘routine’ check point anywhere on election day, let alone close to a polling place? And that info was certainly available to the Florida officials involved. Jeb certainly could have had a call placed to the State Police and gotten verification within hours, if not minutes. So, your defense of the time length is absurd. It’s taken a month and a half for him to get this info, despite it being in the public realm for weeks? The allegations were made the night of the election. They should have been immediately followed up on and announced.
You asked what should the Republicans do. I gave you suggestions. You chose, instead, to lambast me. See? Maybe the Republicans can learn something from this exchange. Ask for suggestions. Get suggestions - shoot the messanger?
And, I’ll “pull a Milo” - I’m heading out of town, won’t be at my computer, so have at it, you get the last word.
**
Hundreds?! Try two or three people - in EVERY link you provided.
**
First of all, I support outlawing a SoS taking on a campaign role ‘to avoid the appearance of impropriety.’ It’s a good idea.
As for my “continued support of Ms. Harris,” why would I support her? I don’t live in Florida. Why do you not support her, if I may ask? What did she do that was illegal or not following standard Florida election procedure, again?
**
To see if you had something definitive yet. You don’t.
**
Yep. Saw that. Have they released their findings yet? Hmm … it seems they haven’t. You outraged at them, too?
OK. Michael Isikoff reported on Gore partisan Sue Gunzberger’s ballot-counting in Broward County in its issue in one of the last two weeks of November. Go get a copy.
By the way, these people wearing black robes in Washington D.C. seemed to have something to say about the hand-count process as it was proceeding in Florida a little while back … don’t recall exactly who they were, but it struck me at the time that they seemed a little more reputable final word on the process than a citizen anecdote.
**
IF IT’S TRUE, I have no idea why. Wouldn’t seem like a good idea. However, you ever been stopped at a checkpoint? People aren’t typically detained from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.
Really? If it’s just that easy, then why doesn’t your vaunted ABC web site do the same thing? Don’t see such an effort even mentioned in any of your provided links. Getting facts and proof from the police department doesn’t make for as juicy of news as one of Jesse’s foot soldiers spouting unsubstantiated allegations, I guess.
Didn’t we already determine that you’re not a Democrat? And I’m pretty sure you’re white. Thanks, though.
**
Does that mean you’ll start making sense now? 
Happy Holidays.
As for the republicans immediate outcry over how wrong that was. Why should they? Everyone would have called it a token effort and ignored it and told them to get back to the election. Besides a roadblock wouldent actually stop anyone who has gone all the trouble to register to vote.
Jeb did not want to be in the public eye this election so he wasent going to do anything.