Republicans and Abortions

[SenorBeef]

@JB99

At the beginning of your paragraph it is “an atrocity that everyone agreed was an atrocity.” By the end of your paragraph, you’re just talking about not thinking it’s “a bad thing.” Nice false dichotomy, with your inability to conceive of anything between “atrocity” and “not a bad thing.”

Okay, replace “bad thing” with “atrocity” in my last sentence and my point still stands.

I’m saying that the position of “if you’re not willing to go out and kill people to stop something, you must not really oppose it, so you’re a hypocrite” is bullshit. Very few people are willing to put their lives on the lines proactively for their beliefs in this way.

Clearly anti-abortion activists think abortion is a “bad thing” that nonetheless does not rise to parity with actual “murder.” They are insincere in the same way drone strike opponents and vegetarians are insincere.

Am I understanding you correctly that if people who oppose drone strikes or meat eating aren’t actually driven to the point of violent action against those things, their opposition to it is insincere?

[Fiveyearlurker]

As usual, Carl Sagan nailed the issue. This essay turned me from being pro-life to pro-choice in the 1990s.

As a society, we don’t have a problem with killing animals. So, the philosophical question isn’t when does life begin, but when does human life begin. Apparently, distinctly human brain waves begin at about week 30. So, the fetus becomes human at week 30. Beginning of the third trimester.

I don’t disagree with the argument that killing a human fetus is wrong. I just disagree with where the pro-life folks decide to draw that line. Drawing it at conception makes a degree of sense. I just happen to disagree with the reasoning.

[k9bfriender]

@iamthewalrus_3

I must not understand your comment here. I’m talking about guns as an analogy. Do you think there are only hundreds of people killed by guns a year?

Sorry, there were a few conflations there, and I thought you were talking more police shootings. Still, talking tens of thousands (including suicide and self defense), vs hundreds of thousands.

Sure, guns kill a bunch of people, and I advocate for policies that would reduce that number. But, there is not a particular organization that causes people to be shot. Shooting people is already illegal (most of the time), and if you shoot someone, then we generally do our best (or at least some token effort) to track you down and punish you.

There are gun manufacturers and even the NRA that are a part of the problem, and there are some people who have taken shots at them as well. But they haven’t actually killed anyone.

But with abortion, you are talking about individuals who “murder” “baby” day after day, and they get away with it. And they go back the next day, and they kill even more. They get paid for “murdering” “babies”, rather than receive any punishment.

If your neighbor for some weird quirk of the law had immunity against being charged for murder, so every morning, he walked out and shot 4-10 children, and got paid for it, how long would you let that go before you took the law into your own hands and did some extra legal remedies to get the “murder” that you see take place before your eyes to stop?

I would stop that shit right quick, cuase that’s murder.

So, it stands to reason that anti-abortion activists don’t see it as murder, or they’d be doing something about it.
Alright, and one more time about “murder”. If I say that a cop “murdered” an unarmed person, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it meets the legal criteria of murder, what he did was not illegal. However, by stating that it is murder, I am indicating that I believe that what he did should be illegal.

That is why you cannot say that it is murder, and still be pro-choice. To say that it is murder either means that it is illegal, or that you think that it should be illegal. Any other usage is the same hyperbole on par with “That quarterback got murdered with that sack”.

[DinoR]

It’s not nearly as partisan an issue as the stereotype tries to paint it. 36% of us dastardly Republicans support abortion in all or most cases as of polling last month. The GOP also gets about a third of it’s votes nationwide from Independents. As a group, 60% of Independents are also in support of legal abortion in all or most cases. That story doesn’t show if they did the analysis for right leaning independents that is relevant. There’s a real issue for the party if it genuinely pursued more than relatively constrained limitations on abortion. The GOP needs pro-abortion voters or it loses badly.

[JB99]

@SenorBeef

Okay, replace “bad thing” with “atrocity” in my last sentence and my point still stands.

I’m saying that the position of “if you’re not willing to go out and kill people to stop something, you must not really oppose it, so you’re a hypocrite” is bullshit. Very few people are willing to put their lives on the lines proactively for their beliefs in this way.

Am I understanding you correctly that if people who oppose drone strikes or meat eating aren’t actually driven to the point of violent action against those things, their opposition to it is insincere?

And you just perpetrated the same fallacy twice more. You refuse to comprehend anything other than black and white terms. I don’t know what the malfunction is, because that’s three times in a row you’ve made the same fallacious accusation.

Their opposition is sincere. Their claim that it is ‘murder’ is not.

If you can’t grasp that concept then there’s nothing I can do for you. But since you repeatedly return to the same false dichotomy, I can only assume that further discussion is futile.

[Two_Many_Cats]

No, you can believe that abortion is murder and still be pro-choice.

The biggest reason I’ve been abstinent for my whole life is so that I could be certain to avoid accidental pregnancy. Using birth control even consistently could not guarantee that I would never get pregnant, so abstinence is what I chose.

Now that I am approaching the end of menopause, I may reconsider my abstinent state.

Everyone should make their own choice about reproduction. Therefore, I am pro-choice. But I still consider that life begins at conception, and abortion is only rarely morally justified.

[Gatopescado]

@The_Librarian

Can anyone in this thread make their without ridiculous hyperbole or tortured comparisons?

I make with lots of pained grunting and the occasional “Hoo-Boy!” followed by a courtesy flush.

[JB99]

@Two_Many_Cats

No, you can believe that abortion is murder and still be pro-choice.

The biggest reason I’ve been abstinent for my whole life is so that I could be certain to avoid accidental pregnancy. Using birth control even consistently could not guarantee that I would never get pregnant, so abstinence is what I chose.

Now that I am approaching the end of menopause, I may reconsider my abstinent state.

Everyone should make their own choice about reproduction. Therefore, I am pro-choice. But I still consider that life begins at conception, and abortion is only rarely morally justified.

You cannot be pro-choice and still believe abortion is “murder,” unless your (A) you are really saying you are okay with murder or (B) your definition of “murder” is wildly different from my own.

If an abortion is morally justified then it is - by my definition - not “murder,” in the same way not all homicides are “murder.” If you think some abortions might be justified - albeit rarely - then they don’t fall under the category of “murder.”

[SenorBeef]

@JB99

Their opposition is sincere. Their claim that it is ‘murder’ is not.

If you can’t grasp that concept then there’s nothing I can do for you.

Apparently not, because I can’t actually make sense of your point.

As far as I can tell, you feel that someone can have opposition to abortion, whether they take action or not. But if they consider abortion murder, then they must be required to go out and start murdering people who perform it, otherwise they can’t really believe its murder.

You also implicitly claimed that people opposed to drone strikes and vegetarians also aren’t sincere unless they take violent action.

Instead of just shouting fallacy a lot, maybe actually outline what position you’re attempting to take, because you’re just sort of darting around insubstantially around an argument.

Edit: I’m pretty sure you understand the point I’m trying to make, and aren’t even fighting it, but instead just throwing around weird accusations of fallacies and obfuscating the point.

[Nava]

@Two_Many_Cats

No, you can believe that abortion is murder and still be pro-choice.

The biggest reason I’ve been abstinent for my whole life is so that I could be certain to avoid accidental pregnancy. Using birth control even consistently could not guarantee that I would never get pregnant, so abstinence is what I chose.

Now that I am approaching the end of menopause, I may reconsider my abstinent state.

Everyone should make their own choice about reproduction. Therefore, I am pro-choice. But I still consider that life begins at conception, and abortion is only rarely morally justified.

…ok, how come I never knew I had a twin? Although in my case, I haven’t been abstinent my whole life, but very close to and when I did have sex I made sure to double up on contraceptives.

And JB99, I also consider a murder in self-defense a murder. But justified and legal.

[Uncommon_Sense]

@JB99

You’ll just keep voting for them, and they’ll keep doing nothing, and you two will do that same old sorry dance year after year until the universe dies of heat death.

Thanks for nothing, you unbelievable fuckwits.

This exact argument can be made for repeatedly voting for liberals who promise handouts to everyone. How many electoral generations of liberals have to run cities like Detroit and Milwaukee and not make any progress?

[iiandyiiii]

@Uncommon_Sense

This exact argument can be made for repeatedly voting for liberals who promise handouts to everyone. How many electoral generations of liberals have to run cities like Detroit and Milwaukee and not make any progress?

I promise not to vote for “liberals who promise handouts to everyone”. In fact, I’ve voted for Democrats for nearly every election of the last 20 years, and I’ve never done so.

If I ever happen to see one of these mythical “liberals who promise handouts to everyone” outside of the fantasies of right-wing infotainers like Hannity and Limbaugh, I’ll let you know.

[Uncommon_Sense]

@iiandyiiii

I promise not to vote for “liberals who promise handouts to everyone”. In fact, I’ve voted for Democrats for nearly every election of the last 20 years, and I’ve never done so.

If I ever happen to see one of these mythical “liberals who promise handouts to everyone” outside of the fantasies of right-wing infotainers like Hannity and Limbaugh, I’ll let you know.

Don’t be daft…they don’t actually say “I promise handouts to everyone”, but the intent is to keep things the same, or undo what any progress evil conservatives make.

Um, it’s called “status quo”. Don’t you think the liberal politicians aren’t also intent on keeping the same pressure on their own voter base?

Liberal Politician thinking; “Shit, if all the inner city folk had jobs and money and could move out of the shit-holes they rent then they wouldn’t need us anymore…”

I actually believe this, because I see it happen.

[Cheesesteak]

@SenorBeef

Apparently not, because I can’t actually make sense of your point.

As far as I can tell, you feel that someone can have opposition to abortion, whether they take action or not. But if they consider abortion murder, then they must be required to go out and start murdering people who perform it, otherwise they can’t really believe its murder.

To help you get what we’re coming from here, let’s propose a WWYD scenario.

You’re walking down the street, and on the sidewalk in front of a medical office are two adults and a 4 year old child. The adults all but announce that, in full view of everyone, they are going to kill the child. You, and everyone else around, believe them completely, it is an act you know they can do, and are fully prepared to do.

They begin laying out the tools to perform the deed now, and you are also certain that they pose little to no threat to you, an adult. What do you do?

A natural choice, is to do something concrete to stop them. You needn’t kill them yourself, but to do nothing to physically stop them seems, to me, to be tacit agreement that what they are doing isn’t really as bad as murdering a child.
How does this relate to abortion? If you honestly feel that an abortion is the literal murder of a child, this situation from above is happening. Granted it’s not on a sidewalk in front of a medical office, it’s inside the medical office. Just behind that door, children are being killed.

[EscAlaMike]

@Cheesesteak

To help you get what we’re coming from here, let’s propose a WWYD scenario.

You’re walking down the street, and on the sidewalk in front of a medical office are two adults and a 4 year old child. The adults all but announce that, in full view of everyone, they are going to kill the child. You, and everyone else around, believe them completely, it is an act you know they can do, and are fully prepared to do.

They begin laying out the tools to perform the deed now, and you are also certain that they pose little to no threat to you, an adult. What do you do?

A natural choice, is to do something concrete to stop them. You needn’t kill them yourself, but to do nothing to physically stop them seems, to me, to be tacit agreement that what they are doing isn’t really as bad as murdering a child.
How does this relate to abortion? If you honestly feel that an abortion is the literal murder of a child, this situation from above is happening. Granted it’s not on a sidewalk in front of a medical office, it’s inside the medical office. Just behind that door, children are being killed.

This isn’t equivalent though.

The rub is that abortion is legally protected, and the person attempting to disrupt the abortion would face criminal charges. Whereas dismemberment of a 4 year old child is illegal, and the person disrupting that act would be seen by virtually everyone, including the law, as a hero.

[iiandyiiii]

@Uncommon_Sense

Don’t be daft…they don’t actually say “I promise handouts to everyone”, but the intent is to keep things the same, or undo what any progress evil conservatives make.

Um, it’s called “status quo”. Don’t you think the liberal politicians aren’t also intent on keeping the same pressure on their own voter base?

Liberal Politician thinking; “Shit, if all the inner city folk had jobs and money and could move out of the shit-holes they rent then they wouldn’t need us anymore…”

I actually believe this, because I see it happen.

Okay, so this is what fantasy liberals (and maybe one politician that you’ve met personally, if I’m reading you correctly) might believe… but it has nothing to do with what I believe, or the way I understand the politicians I generally vote for, or anything to do with the many, many real world liberals I know and interact with.

[enipla]

@Cheesesteak

…Granted it’s not on a sidewalk in front of a medical office, it’s inside the medical office. Just behind that door, children are being killed.

You’re missing something here. It is not a child.

[Uncommon_Sense]

@iiandyiiii

Okay, so this is what fantasy liberals (and maybe one politician that you’ve met personally, if I’m reading you correctly) might believe… but it has nothing to do with what I believe, or the way I understand the politicians I generally vote for, or anything to do with the many, many real world liberals I know and interact with.

Good to hear. I would like to have a further discussion regarding how to “fix” the city I grew up in (Milwaukee). I’m a conservative fiscally and moderate/liberal socially (I know, right!?).
I would like to have a healthy discussion regarding ways to improve our country starting with how to fix crime and poverty in my city.
I’ll start a thread when I get a minute.

[iamthewalrus_3]

@iiandyiiii

There are things Americans can do about abortion, beyond just voting. Those (relatively very few) pro-life people who spend most of their free time protesting abortion clinics probably really do feel that abortion is equivalent to murdering babies, by their actions, at least, IMO – they are upending their lives and making sacrifices (while doing something terrible, IMO, but from their perspective a half-million babies are being murdered every year).

This is a good point, and I agree with a lot of it, but I will also counter it with: does protesting abortion clinics accomplish anything? It’s an honest question. I don’t know the answer. I tend to think it doesn’t. Maybe lots of people who think that abortion is morally equivalent to murder also think it doesn’t, and more people would protest abortion clinics if they thought it would actually do something.

Maybe some of the rest don’t know what to do. But in my experience, anti-abortion people are just as likely to be regular, happy Americans as pro-choice people. I don’t think that’s consistent with believing that hundreds of thousands of babies are being murdered around them every year.

Some of that is just a testament to our ability to compartmentalize. We can become inured to brutality that’s ever present.

It just makes a lot more sense to me, on a human level, if they’re being a bit hyperbolic with their rhetoric. That fits the facts a lot more than living a happy life, occasionally voting and arguing but otherwise going about one’s life normally, while believing that millions of babies are being savagely murdered every decade by one’s neighbors.

To be clear: I think that you are right that they are being hyperbolic. I just don’t think you can draw that conclusion from the fact that they aren’t doing more to oppose abortion. They might be doing everything they think they can reasonably do.

@k9bfriender

But with abortion, you are talking about individuals who “murder” “baby” day after day, and they get away with it. And they go back the next day, and they kill even more. They get paid for “murdering” “babies”, rather than receive any punishment.

Yeah, I agree that there’s more proximity and immediacy with abortion than gun manufacturers

If your neighbor for some weird quirk of the law had immunity against being charged for murder, so every morning, he walked out and shot 4-10 children, and got paid for it, how long would you let that go before you took the law into your own hands and did some extra legal remedies to get the “murder” that you see take place before your eyes to stop?

I would stop that shit right quick, cuase that’s murder.

Most people are not violent. Most people will not resort to vigilantism to solve even dire problems. That doesn’t mean that they don’t think the problem is dire. It means that most people don’t use violence to achieve their ends. Most people aren’t willing to die or rot in prison for a cause.

I suspect that despite your words, you probably wouldn’t really do this either.

I agree with EscAlaMike’s comment too. It’s easy to imagine yourself as a hero. It’s a lot harder to do something that’s going to get you convicted of murder.

Jumping analogies: are you planning an assassination attempt on Kim of North Korea? If not, why not? Is it because he’s not really murdering people? Or maybe because you’re not really a violent person, or you don’t want to die in a blaze of glory?

Are you a police officer? There are people getting murdered out there, and more motivated police would certainly help. If not, why not? Is it because you think those people aren’t really being murdered? Or is it maybe because things are a bit more complicated than “I see a murderer, I leap into action as a hero”.

So, it stands to reason that anti-abortion activists don’t see it as murder, or they’d be doing something about it.

Except they do! They bomb abortion clinics and try to murder the doctors. Sure, only a very small subset of anti-abortion activists do that, but again, the only conclusion you can draw from that is that most people aren’t violent vigilantes. The difference between someone who bombs an abortion clinic and someone who single-issue votes for anti-abortion politicians isn’t sincerity of belief. It’s willingness to commit violence to achieve ones goals. Most people aren’t willing to do so.

[WolfpackJeep]

A particularly nasty little piece by a Christian “humor” page was pointed out to me this morning; it presented a satirical article in which Kurt Gosnell was presented as being no different than Planned Parenthood. The comments (I know, never read the comments) seemed to be taking it at face value. It made me wonder…do anti-choicers really think that people who support abortion rights enjoy the concept of abortion? Do they honestly believe that pro-choicers celebrate pregnancy terminations, or that doctors who perform these procedures celebrate each supposed kill?