The misconception forms a basic divide between centrists and right-wingers. You can see this even here at SDMB where right-wingers have been seen to oppose UHC (since it provides health care to the undeserving) even when the UHC can be funded without tax or premium increases.
Please note that above I wrote “centrists,” not “leftists.” Some leftists may also see an economy as a morality play, albeit with different moral lessons!
(Also note that by “leftist” I mean “leftist.” One of the many ways the Limbaugh-Beck-Bachman Idiocracy has confused the American people is in claiming that centrist and right-of-center Democrats are “leftist.”)
Yes. And alas, no. Centrists have difficulty getting their heads around the Paradox of Thrift. As do those without coursework in economics, and I can hardly blame the latter.
Another example of centrist moralism would be calls to raise the medicare eligibility age, which has been shown to save very little money in practice as it shifts people into private care, which tends to be more expensive than Medicare. More details (they are vast) here.
Left leaners have more difficulty with microeconomics, though admittedly righties give short shrift to the 4 or 7 sources of market failure. The difference is that liberals are more interested in the nuts and bolts of policy than conservatives are: the latter seem to concern themselves with constructing paths to preconceived destinations. Health care reform is but one example: Republicans are complaining about high deductables in bronze plans ignoring the availability of silver and gold as well as their own promotion of High Deductible HSAs and the like. I guess they really didn’t mean it.
Hey my instincts in physics are crap as well. I mean the idea that a 30 lb weight would fall at the same velocity as a 60 lb weight isn’t exactly intuitive. And that’s Newtonian physics: relativity and quantum mechanics are far worse.
You have a right to call it stupid, but I did not, nor do I believe someone should be there to support me. Not going without food for a couple of days was my choice, I feel I am responsible for my actions ans situation. But the old adage holds true today; “Beggars can’t be choosers”.
I realize there are people who do need help and I am now in a position to help and I do. But if one is fussy about what they are given I don’t feel sorry for them. I volunteered at a senior center and heard people gripe about the food they got. They sure didn’t look very hungry. One (in my opinion) should do all they can to avoid needing others to care for them, and I do realize there are people who do need help. Circumstances are not always the same. But I feel, if a person can afford Cigarettes and Booze then can buy their own groceries. One doesn’t need the expensive cuts of meat to survive.
Being hungry for a few days doesn’t mean starvation!
If you mean me: I give without anyone knowing who it is. You can think what ever you wish about me that is your right. I feel I am responsible for my own situation.
Not true, SS is based on what one put into it. It is a insurance plan. I know many people who live very low on the hog because they didn’t earn much. I had a brother in-law that only got $500.00 per month, We talked him into staying with us.
I agree with you in no. 2b , I lived through the great depression I remember singing," Roosevelt is in the White House waiting for election; Hoover’s in the garbage can waiting for collection", And like now, too many people lived on borrowed money and couldn’t pay for it. Even a millionaire will get behind if they spend over their income, or if something happens they can’t work they lose everything. I know people like that today.
There is a lot of nutritious food that doesn’t cost a lot. and hamburger is just as healthy as prime rib roast or tenderloin stakes! My children , my husband and I are in good health. we are both in our 80’s and lived under our income.
Not at all! People just look to people like the Donald and do not respect the man who goes out every day and earns the money for to feed his family. Of course there are many people who do not want to live off others and do all in their power to keep that from happening. I believe people deserve to have food but they do not need Tenderloin steaks , lobster etc. to keep alive. My husband was off work once for 6 weeks, we saved more during that time than we did any year before, We didn’t even buy a 3 cent stamp we didn’t need.
Not to be disrespectful… but you remind me a lot of my Mother and her philosophy on life… She lived thru the Great Depression, but I noted they came out of it very differently.
My Dad died a little over a decade ago, and he was a hard worker, we never went hungry , but didn’t have much besides that. My Mom stayed on him constantly for bringing extra lunch to his blue collar job ( sawmill) for others he saw who didn’t have a lunch.
He got a gift of a coat for Christmas, he saw a man walking along the road without a coat, he gave it to him. This drove my Mom absolutely bonkers. I’ve read you echoing a lot of her sentiments.
But just the other day a close relative to her ( just in case that close relative finds this place and I don’t know it! lol) came and fixed something pretty urgent for her, then got a few packages of her home grown veggies out of the freezer. They had probably been in there for 5 years or more, but she was so afraid relative who is as close a one as I am , her daughter, was going to give it to daughter .
This daughter according to her never picked a thing in her life… the relative himself didn’t need it, he’s got money, but it was just the whole point her her making a huge deal to me about it, like it was a pot of gold or something… I’m sure said relative had no idea or they wouldn’t have touched it.
Everything is not black and white… sure times were different then, and bless you if you made it without help. Good for you. I just think that’s the problem with our world now… our nation… we have too many that begrudge any type of help for others or want to put stipulations on it.
Hey… I’ve paid taxes when I was healthy to work, my husband still does. I don’t work now. I have kidney disease plus a few complications, but can’t draw disability till I’m on dialysis, which I find terrifying so I can’t see myself doing but that’s a whole other thing and I don’t want to threadshit.
Suffice to say, a LOT of very intelligent people on here seem to believe and are generous hearted enough to realize OP isn’t asking for anything more than a support net to help him … I doubt he would have went to all this trouble of a vent if he didn’t see the complete stupidity of the system as it now is… so we know he’s that bright.
But what about the ones who aren’t? I know I’m not… If I had to support myself now I’d be in a world of crap. And could be if something happens to husband. Do I deserve to starve because I got a chronic disease and other side issues because of it? Because I’m no longer able to be a good worker bee?
No… I too want infants, toddlers and pregnant moms to get their nutrition. I think living a joyless life to satisfy someone else’s pompous attitude is ridiculous. Until we all learn to help lift each other up, and get it through our heads that we either live together or die alone, probably in misery or with starving , suffering family, we are doomed as a species.
It particularly makes me sick when I see people who claim to be all religious be so darn stingy and greedy . I think they want to be God. I think they want to call the shots and mete out justice.
We need more mercy and kindness and a little less judgement in this world. There is no way you can compare yourself against anyone. No two people will have the same experiences, therefore you deciding their fate is being willfully ignorant and frankly way to controlling.
If some abuse the system, I mean really, how MUCH can they abuse UI? Or foodstamps? I’ve heard of people selling foodstamps to get their kids a pair of shoes. Not everyone is buying drugs with it I doubt. Who are we to judge or to even KNOW?
Better to err and let some people get one by us than make countless suffer… and I don’t understand why people leave out men. They may agree to taking care of the female and children to a certain extent, but God forbid a man get healthcare or foodstamps or anything… they are automatically labeled as lazy. Some may be… so what? Most aren’t… They have to be healthy too to support family, to be a good dad.
I do believe in God, though I’m not into religion. So I do pray every day that God will change hearts and soften them to see… because it takes our hands and hearts to help. We are the caretakers of this earth. Sorry if the little dip into God irks some… I certainly respect anyone who doesn’t believe , and have been there too earlier in life.
I believe we don’t even have to focus on that… just seriously… be KIND and have a little empathy toward others… Channel some John Lennon !
Sorry for the long post, but it’s encouraging to see so many finally saying they don’t mind sharing what they make to help others.
And especially being in the deep south, I hear this rhetoric so much about people pulling themselves up by the boot straps it just a breath of fresh air to see a little compassion…
Okay shutting up… as I said, I was taught to respect my elders… but seriously lady… there aren’t even any trees around here to dig wax out of … Sheesh. Good for you and all, but we have a new generation coming up that I hope can lose their bitterness and think with wisdom and from the heart when needed.
Is Rand Paul discussing being against an initiative that would continue unemployment benefits forever? Is that the deal on the table which he is against? Is there anyone in our government (a couple of people in this thread do not make policy) who is even suggesting such a thing?
If not, then maybe you can clarify for me whether your dissent with regard to this issue, in light of the above quoted remark, is either a slippery slope or a strawman, as I can make a case for either.
Because my spouse has diabetes, being “hungry”, that is, going entirely without food for a few days, could easily land him in the hospital. For some diabetics, that could kill them. So, bravo, you were young and healthy and we’re, for some mysterious reason, OK with that. I’m not, and I’m not risking the life of any one in my family to hold to your arbitrary standard.
Likewise, with this volunteering you do, have you considered that maybe there might be a reason for the grousing beyond just ordinary likes and dislikes? Or do you just enjoy being smugly superior to those “beggars”? People who are well off and have free choice in their food complain, why shouldn’t poor people with no choice at all? Or do you think they should suck it up and eat whatever swill is dished out, whether or not it tastes foul, or might cause them problems with physical conditions?
In the bad old days people really did starve to death, and if they had dietary issues, oh, well, sucks to be them they can either eat it and get sick or starve. I don’t think that was right then, I don’t think it’s right now, and while I will defend your right to have any opinion you want I will most strenuously object to an opinion that, in my opinion, is wrong and sucks rotten eggs.
If there’s a situation where, for whatever reason, the tenderloin is priced under the hamburger (usually due to it being the end of the “sell by” date) I’m buying the cheaper tenderloin and screw the nosy busy-bodies!
How you did during the ‘30s affected your world view for life. I can tell you from the stories or my grands that people who managed to keep fed, clothed, and proud were a lot less charitable or even tolerant than people who had been dirt poor. You dealt with survivors’ guilt by believing in a just world and the character flaws of others.
Remember that in 1936, in the first scientific presidential poll, Alf Landon swept everyone with either a car or a phone. That FDR still took 46 states just tells us how few cars and phones there were.
I read this story this morning. It’s a few years outdated, and for all I know the writer’s luck has turned for the better. But it still got me thinking.
I will admit to having, reflexively perhaps, a couple of negative judgments. Like, I don’t get purposefully creating a family as a single parent. One kid, sure. But a houseful of them, one of them special needs? This just doesn’t seem smart, unless you’ve got a really secure job and a support network of family and friends. And using almost all of your savings to buy a house also doesn’t seem very smart either. Not unless you’ve got another income as insurance for the worst case scenario.
But what point do these judgments serve? Even if the woman has made a couple of not-wise decisions in her life, should the consequence be homelessness? I have made stupid decisions too, just like everyone else has. Should I be ready to live in a trailer at a moment’s notice?
And is she more noble than someone who decides to seek out government assistance and live in subsidized housing? Or uses food stamps? Why should her daughter have to sleep on a kitchen table and do her homework assignments in the car just because her mother is too proud to ask for help? The line between pride and stupidity is really thin.
Is she increasing or worsening her job prospects by living under such conditions? How is she going to get a job if she’s in such bad shape, physically and mentally?
I don’t see how cutting people like this woman off from UI will help them. But I also have to be honest with myself and admit that I don’t understand how keeping her on UI is helping her either. Assuming she and her kids are still living the same way. For all I know, once the payments ran out they were forced out on the street. I suppose people stop writing articles when things get this bad.
There’s a certain sense of “I don’t belong here” in the article, and I’ve noticed it in many conversations about unemployment including this thread. We seem to believe that once we’ve managed to settle in to a middle class life we deserve to keep it no matter what. So people lose their middle class jobs but don’t understand why they should have to get used to the idea of living in a trailer or becoming a two income family or working for lower wages. Everyone seems to be waiting for things to get back to normal but for a lot of people I don’t think they ever will. It seems like it’s almost impossible to move out of whatever class you’re in these days, she might be living in that trailer for the rest of her life.
I don’t blame individuals for being slow to face reality, though. Our whole lives we’ve been taught certain things. Things like, “Only lazy bums and retards work for minimum wage” or “If you go to college, work hard, play by the rules, you can have the American Dream.” Even something as simple as “Don’t give up” hold us back psychologically. The woman in that article is waging a war on this principle…believing that if she and her kids endure in that trailer just a little while longer, things will work out somehow. Putting on a Walmart smock after working in an office seems like giving up. I know that personally I would feel defeated if I were in that position.
She never mentions family (parents, siblings, etc.). Maybe she’s estranged from them or they just don’t exist. Or maybe her pride keeps her from asking them for help. If it’s the latter, she’s stupid, but I think society has a role in this too. We’re taught to be independent and move away from the clan as soon as we reach 18. No one REALLY wants to take in their homeless sister and her four children and two pets, and some people wouldn’t feel any obligation–cultural or familial–to do so. And the thing is, sometimes they are completely justified in being so cold. But the truth is that maybe we wouldn’t need such strengthening of the safety net if families were closer, both in proximity and in terms of functioning. Maybe it would be easier for people to accept reality if they had more support in making the transition, and if they could see they weren’t the only one having to do this.
In the piece, she reflects on how she saw other families like hers at the campgrounds, but no one ever came together to commiserate and help one another. It’s hard to accept reality when you feel compelled to keep up appearances all the time. I don’t think this is indicative of a character flaw. If it is, all of us have it to a certain extent.
It is an insurance plan. It’s also called a contract between generations. But here’s the thing: SS is not only adjusted for inflation. It’s also adjusted for increases in wages. As a result, certain cohorts (or generations) have done rather well with it as a group. You are correct that it scales with your lifetime earnings though.
It’s a pretty good program I think. Although the media often claims there’s a big crisis in social security and medicare, that’s highly misleading. Social security only requires tweaks (relatively speaking). It’s health care costs that are tough to contain, though the Affordable Care Act has actually been a pretty good start, despite uncorrected and dishonestly misleading claims by the right wing media. Unfortunately that won’t hurt their viewership, since their audience is interested in reassurance, not trustworthy information.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule and I realize that there are many who need help, the one’s I know in good health just want a job, but also some who could work don’t, even the working poor give to the one’s not working and still live as if they have money.
I wasn’t expecting people to live as I had to, and I give a lot to the food pantry ,Red Cross etc. I just believe if one is getting help they shouldn’t expect to live on someone else’s money. One can live on cheaper foods and be healthy.
