Yeah. Don’t focus on things like feeding your children and paying your rent (things you can’t do); instead focus on selling your blood, dumpster-diving and moving your family to a tent-city somewhere (things you can do).
Oops. I forgot. Just create a job for yourself and everything will be fine.
That’s a very open ended question, and could encompass any number of things. But just to be clear, I’m not opposed to unemployment benefits and I’m not necessarily opposed to extending them, if it makes economic sense. I am opposed to unemployment benefits that have no end, and in that case, some people are going to end up just like the OP. Right now, I honestly don’t know what the best answer is. But even if unemployment benefits were extended another 6 months, I’d be very careful about what jobs I pursued, because the every time the benefits get extended, it’s more likely to not happen again.
I expect people to assess the environment they are in and act accordingly. In the current political environment, I would not expect unemployment benefits to be extended again (remember, they’ve already been extended at least once). Now, as I said earlier, if the OP just wants to vent, then I’m cool with that. Vent away. But in the end, we have to accept the reality of the world we find ourselves in. And right now, I’d be looking at whatever I could possibly do to get some income, because the dole is going to run out sooner or later. Probably sooner.
So…the solution to unemployment is the power of positive thinking?
I’ve never started a business but I understand that there’s generally some overhead, yes? If you work in the trades, you probably need various certifications. You need insurance of various sorts. Trucks and tools and whatnot. You have to fill out forms and pay taxes (or pay someone to do those things for you). You have to advertise.
That seems to take capital, which is something that someone already on unemployment has little of. Kind of hard to start your own business when you have no materials or capital and no track record to attract investors.
And more than anything when you’re starting a business, you need time. Time to form a business plan. Figure out where the financing is going to come from. Time to design products or locate potential clients or learn the necessary technologies.
What I do know from observing people who started their own businesses is that they generally do it because they have an idea and passion to make it happen. Not because someone threw them off a cliff and said “fly, you lazy bastard.”.
And even with that passion and planning and hard work, most of those businesses fail.
Of course it’s positive thinking. Positive thinking is one of the driving forces behind right wing philosophy. You can succeed if you really want to! If you don’t succeed it’s your own fault!
If you’re rich, you earned it. If you’re poor, it’s your own fault. Neither of those things is true all of the time. In fact, they’re probably not true a large part, if not most, of the time. But many Republicans believe in them, in spite of common sense and all evidence to the contrary.
No. Never said it was.
But the solution sure as hell isn’t trying to find any given reason that things are hopeless. So far, quite a number of posters here have shown a proclivity to do just that.
I’ve never found this a very convincing argument. Yes, I know a business owner generally puts in a certain amount of unpaid overtime. But you really can’t make a comparison with your employees’ 40-hour work week and claim you’re making less than they are, unless you also factor in the equity you’re building in the business, the net value of your physical plant, the good will inherent in the business, the professional contacts, etc. You may also be taking advantage of certain perqs…a company-owned vehicle (or at least mileage reimbursement), tax write-offs for expenses, subsidies or grants to small businesses and more. These are all part of the value of your business; value that you will, in all likelihood cash in on at some point.
Actually in most states a business owner can claim unemployment benefits…if the business has closed down and not just undergoing a temporary cash flow problem, and if the owner has been paying into the system. Also owners may buy their own disability insurance in case of illness or incapacity.
And this, along with the quotes by fisha shows what I believe to be the major fallacy in libertarians’ thinking… the child’s illusion of central position. “If I can do it anyone could (if they weren’t so lazy, stupid, unmotivated, hadn’t made so many bad decisions, etc.”. “My experience is just like everyone else’s”. “Of course I can pass judgement on others’ situations, my own perspective is the relevant one”. And so on.
I know where you’re coming from, I too subscribed to libertarian philosophy when I was a youth. I know the attraction of fundamentalist thought in economics as well as in religious matters. “But when I became a man I put away childish things…”
SS
I was where OP is a few years ago. I hadn’t been able to find another job after a lay-off and my unemployment ran out. The only advantage, if you can call it that, was that I didn’t have kids to worry about - “just” a disabled spouse who was disabled enough no one would hire him but, apparently, not so disabled as to be able to get disability benefits. (Basically, the judge said that since he had a master’s degree he didn’t need to be able to walk or have working hands to get a job, he could think for a living. :rolleyes: )
It was scary, it was tough, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone so, OP, I do feel for you and wish you a heaping helping of good fortune this month, somehow, some way.
It IS a fact that many employers now will simply not consider anyone unemployed as a job prospect. Which just makes that particular hell all the worse.
Poverty sucks. Making it suck more will not provide more incentive for the long term unemployed to work harder at getting a job because it already sucks so bad that they’re working at it as hard as they can.
Having a college degree is no longer a guarantee of employment. When the desperate people with college degrees have gotten shit jobs in retail or burger-flipping it just pushes the problem further down the socioeconomic ladder. Yes, at some point you will take the minimum wage job because you have no choice, that doesn’t mean you won’t wind up bankrupt or homeless because minimum wage is NOT a living wage.
Sure, when the unemployment ran out I got “creative” and worked for myself for a couple years in between temporary and part time gigs. You know what? That also sucked. I never had sufficient capital to “grow the business” or get training for myself, it was a desperate scramble to survive while looking for a better job. I’ve done the self-employed thing several times in my life and while I didn’t screw up too badly I’ve actually had more success as someone else’s employee than as my own boss. It’s HARD to be a successful entrepreneur, and suggesting it as a solution to every long-term unemployed job seeker is just ludicrous. Only a minority of people - even educated people with real skills - have what it takes to be successful at it even in the best of times. It’s like suggesting everyone be a doctor or an Alaska crab fisherman - it’s unrealistic.
Sure, if you haven’t had any luck with job applications go ahead and try to set up a business of some sort… it might work. But if it doesn’t work it’s not some sort of proof someone is lazy or incompetent. Even the most well prepared new businesses struggle and more fail than succeed over the long term. It’s not quite as bad as suggesting people play the lottery but it’s nowhere near a sure route to success.
Retraining? How the hell do you get money for that? How do you put a roof over your family’s head, food on the table, AND pay for schooling? Training usually takes place during normal work hours, which interferes with holding a conventional job. It’s not an impossible dilemma but it’s far from easy. And what do you train in? Trades? It is to laugh - there are tens of thousands of tradesmen out of work right now, or flipping burgers at McDonald’s and yes that includes plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. Nursing? They’re laying off nurses at my area’s hospitals. Seriously, what should a person study these days?
Eventually, I wandered into shoe repair. I guess I have a high tolerance for sticking my hands in other peoples’ shoes all day (it helps that I don’t really have a great sense of smell). It got me back into full time work but it doesn’t help that the first people I worked for failed to give me all the training they promised THEN stiffed me for six weeks worth of wages and I finally had to drag their asses into court - I’m still out 1/10 of my annual income. Once again, I did everything right - showed up on time, educated myself, worked my ass off, came in on my days off to cover for no-shows, dealt with unhappy customers - and got the short end of the stick. Nor am I the only one I know whose employer simply stopped paying at some point. Well, OK, I did get another job in the field in short order, but at $0.50 less an hour (although I actually do get paid with checks that don’t bounce and don’t have to shoulder as much responsibility because the owner is competent and also shows up to work). It’s above minimum wage but it’s still not quite enough to make ends meet.
I mean, what the hell? I got my bachelor’s, I worked steadily for 25 or 30 years with no resume gaps, and now this? That’s the thing - millions of us did everything “right”, we got educated, we worked hard, and now find ourselves essentially tossed on the discard heap. And scolded for being lazy/stupid/unable to foresee the future/whatever the gripe is this week. We were supposed to construct our own safety nets and parachutes. Well, you know what? I did - that’s why I didn’t wind up homeless these past six years, but after six years of scrambling my reserves are gone. As they are for millions of others.
I have cut the budget to the bone, sold off possessions, worked my ass off, looked for more work, AND found a new trade - and it’s still not enough! Every day I pick myself up and try to find more/better solutions to my own list of problems but damn it gets discouraging at times even when you can manage to claw up another rung of the ladder from time to time.
Damn right people are pissed off. They have reason to be. And to hell with anyone who has a problem with the bitching because this is a real set of problems that isn’t going away and won’t be made better by kicking the folks who are down.
When someone FEELS hopeless - and we’ve seen many of those these past few years - just telling them to buck up and be positive is no solution either.
The ONLY really viable option, in my opinion, is first to let them vent (telling people to shut the hell up rather than speak of their problems and concerns doesn’t help them one bit) and then to go through their actual situation with them in an attempt to make realistic suggestions. This does, however, take some actual work and thought. It’s much easier just to scold them as lazy or negative.
Back when I was desperate for work the unemployment office drone desperately wanted me to apply for job as a dockworker. Now, it said right in the job description that it required you be able to lift 100 pounds several times in a shift, and 80 pounds frequently. I am a short, middle-aged female. That’s not realistic. I would be a hazard not only to myself but others in such a position but my pointing this out earned me a tongue-lashing for being negative. No, it’s not being negative, it’s dealing with reality. I am physically unsuited to such a job and there is no way to make me suitable for it.
So… what IS the skill set of the OP? How is his physical health? (For a number of years I did manual labor, but that was only possible because I am basically healthy and fit. Not everyone is.) What obligations does he have towards his family? What resources - vehicles, capital, family help - does he have? You can’t even begin to offer meaningful advice without knowing these things. Nor are you in a place to judge without knowing something about those things.
Assuming as a given that it is the answer to someone’s problems is, however uniquely Libertarian. Because Libertarians like simple and elegant answers and don’t care if they’re wrong.
You stated:
I see you stating that you might not get what you need if you work for someone else, but no similar disclaimer to starting your own business.
If you meant for there to be one, it does make your comment less silly.
But, as I say, starting a business takes the correct blend of skill, resources and luck. Assuming that the OP has those (he certainly doesn’t have a lot in the way of resources) is nonsense. Simplistic Libertarian answers aren’t profound. They’re just things that make you feel good about how you’ve done and reinforces, to your mind, that luck wasn’t part of your success.
Maybe this thread doesn’t need you stealth-bragging about how awesome you are, and how, if only the OP had your magnificent balls, he’d be flush with the skrilla.
Who assumed that? Must be you, because I didn’t.
Luck is preparation meeting opportunity. Luck is overrated.
What is this… Black Friday for logical fallacies? I think we’ve got two new ones right there.
Eh. Think what you want. If pointing out alternatives is bragging, stealth or otherwise, then guilty as charged!
Here’s the environment I’m in:
I’ve been out of work for six months.
My unemployment benefits are around 20% of what I was making before I lost my job.
The State of Michigan did not see fit to actually pay me a nickel until the 23rd week of my unemployment.
The same day I got my $6,000 check, I was notified that my benefits had run out, and I needed to file for an extension, but I missed three weeks, which I don’t think I’ll be getting back.
The next week, I was told I won’t be getting anything beyond December 28 anyway.
We currently burn through $2,000 of our savings every month.
Starting in January, if there’s no extension, and if I hold out for a job that actually pays a wage my family can live on, we’ll be burning through about $3,100 per month from our savings.
Were I to take a FT low-wage job, and put my kids into daycare, we’d be burning through about $4,000-5,000 a month.
A PT low-wage job would put us even deeper in the red monthly.
Our plan from our wedding day was to have my wife be a stay-at-home mom, which she was until this fall. She’s desperate to be one again, which we think is best, for our son especially.
Before our kids, when she was a FT librarian, we lived off my salary and saved hers. We’re not financially reckless, we’re not unskilled, we’re not uneducated, we’re not lazy, and luckily we’ve never aspired to be wealthy or anything more than comfortable in a very frugal way.
Now that’s more info than I ever thought I’d share, and I won’t share any more. But I wanted certain people here to see that, if the unemployment benefits aren’t extended, the least worst option for us is actually for me to stay unemployed until something that pays a decent wage comes along. My wife and I are fully capable of budgeting. After crunching the numbers every which way we can, we’re still bent over with our pants down and cheeks spread no matter what. The unemployment extension was gob of lube, which would’ve been nice til we could stand back up again. But the good ophthalmologist does’t think we need that anymore. He thinks he’s doing me a service, bless his demon soul.
We *would *like to go into business for ourselves next year, but that ain’t cheap. Do we pay for equipment and marketing and certifications out of our grocery money or gas/electric money or credit cards? Do I tell my four-year-old he can’t take gymnastics anymore because…what? And how do we do the actual work of our business if we’re working low-wage jobs that are anything but sympathetic to entrepreneurs? We already did a soft start to our business PT this year with some degree of success (no profits, but some customers), but that’s still no guarantee it will succeed enough this year to feed our kids and keep our house, or even cover a fraction of our start-up costs. One of us will still have to work another job. And that’s best-case scenario.
I don’t care if the Feds or the UIA want to make me jump through crazy flaming hoops to keep the dole going for the time being, I’ll jump. Continuing these benefits isn’t going to make me rich or lazy or dependent-- quite the opposite-- and it’s not going to break the federal government to extend these fucking loans to states that have higher-than-average unemployment rates. It’s going to help us become independent again.
Forcing people like me off of unemployment isn’t “for my own good,” as the ophthalmologist so kindly claims, it won’t kick start my job search (“Oh, gee…look for work? Guess I better start doing that!”), and it won’t make me any more “employable.” At best, it’s bullshit ideology that is not rooted in anything close to reality, which makes him and his ilk pig-ignorant. More likely, it’s meant to continue protecting corporations and redistributing more of the wealth to the already-wealthy, which is fucking evil. Ergo, fuck him and all the other Congressional Republicans.
God willing, I’ll find a decent job soon, and this will all be moot…for me. It’s still a fucking disgrace that in this country, it’s acceptable to continue to gut an already-gutted social safety net so corporations can continue to rake in more money for their brass. I had a good job and created my own safety net thanks to smart living and a frugal partner. And it’s because of that we still have our house, but it’s going to run out sooner rather than later, and now apparently, through no fault of my own, the only other safety net I’ve ever relied on in my entire life is being yanked out from under me. Others are in worse situations than we are, and it makes me sick that anyone that is as rich and privileged as Rand Paul is and has always been, can sit there and tell us these cuts are for our own fucking good. You’re fucking-a right I’m pissed.
Gets to a point, you either put them away or they put you away.
I’m sure you don’t, but if you get two roughly equivalent applicants, one who has been unemployed two weeks and the other unemployed for a year, wouldn’t you wonder if the long term guy had some hidden flaw?
People who are fully qualified, like this guy was, still get jobs - eventually.
When I started 32 years ago getting laid off was a black mark. People assumed you got fired for cause. No longer. Lots of hiring managers have gone through this themselves, or seen good people in their company laid off. That’s a plus at least. But the bias against the long term unemployed is real.
Best suggestion in the thread so far. In the '90s, with full employment, a limit is fine. Today, not so much.
BTW John, like me, lives in Silicon Valley where the economy is booming. I’d say move here, but you’ll need a fortune to afford the rent. And not everyone is winning, though it is getting better.
:dubious:
Since you first brought it up in your reply to me, I’m gonna assume this is referring to my post.
That sure is an interesting characterization of my post. Where, exactly, did you see me bemoaning, bitching and/or moaning about anything? I calmly laid out the reasons I disagreed with (or saw flaws in) your positions in this thread. And I’m one of the few posters who have actually provided cites for our arguments. As of this post I’m replying to, how many cites have you provided? … Oh.
And I spent a bit more time and effort making sure I gave cites from actual news/reporting organizations who cite the sources for their data and that those sources appear to be trustworthy. The Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey and economists from Northwestern University, MIT, and the Center for Economic Policy Research aren’t exactly Joe or Jane McWhinyLib with a Daily Kos or Tumblr blog.
Disagreeing with you does not equal “bitching and moaning”. And unsurprisingly, your view of these problems is focused on the individual. It’s what you did, or what this specific poster should do. It’s possible for people to also view these problems on a larger scale and in addition to concern for the OP, to be concerned about the larger, long-term impact on the nation as a whole.
Krugman weighs in and is right on the money. As usual.
Really? We’re doing that? Really? Where have we been doing that? I don’t see it. We’ve been rightfully pointing out that the solutions suggested are at best mediocre and at worst absolutely inapplicable. That “start your own business” is probably not an option for the average person on unemployment.
I certainly sympathize for the OP, its really hard out there right now. Just an example in my home state of Georgia I believe the max unemployment rate is $330/week. Now that rate is before taxes, if you pay federal and state taxes as I did before I couldn’t afford to any longer it drops down to $277/week. After having the benefits extended the rate drops from $330/week to $306/week. If you could only find a minimum wage position as a job you would literally be making less money than you would be on unemployment and if you have kids like I do you would be losing even more money because of the hugely expensive cost of childcare. I don’t believe anybody is “above” low-wage jobs if they have fallen on desperate times but there are definitely times when it would put you in an even worse financial situation, there are other factors too like increased use of gasoline needed to go back and forth from your minimum wage job.
I won’t personally complain because I’ve had safety nets the OP didn’t. I was medically separated from the military and still have health care and was given monetary severance and I also get some VA disability every month because of injuries incurred while in and connected to my military service. And in January I am planning on going back to school and my GI Bill will pay all my tuition plus money to help live on while in school. If I didn’t have all these benefits I would be scared to think what situation I would be in right now. I don’t believe that people should live on welfare or the government’s teat without limit, but when so much of our money is wasted on such other bullshit and on people living in other countries I think its kind of ridiculous that some people really want to have almost no safety nets in our society. Everybody needs help sometimes, just ask all the corporations and industries that have received bailouts from the American taxpayer.
The only reason my spouse and I could start our own business, which we are currently trying to get off the ground (we have orders this month! Yay!) is because his mother DIED and left us some money. Pardon me if I have mixed feelings on a windfall that depended on someone dying.
At that, we’ve been given crap by some people for “wasting” the money instead of trying to live on it - to what purpose? So in 3 years we could find ourselves destitute again? Even with that, it’s been 18 months to build this larval business, which has only opened its doors a couple months ago.
Meanwhile, despite the windfall (which, I repeat, required someone dying to give it to us), we are still living on the sort of budget that features beans and rice on the table, and the only clothes I’ve bought in the past three years is underwear to replace what could no longer be mended enough to be usable (keep in mind, I fix things for a living). Oh, and I’m working full time while trying to help the spouse with this new business thing (essentially, an additional part time job) and, during the summer, growing most of the vegetables we eat during the year (that sort of serious gardening averages to a couple hours a day, too).
No wonder I’m tired all the time!
And then some jerkwad will come along and scold me for being “lazy”, because, you know, if I was really working hard enough I’d be earning more money/more successful/whatever. Then kick those even worse off than me for being even “worse”. And then discount the role of luck entirely, even though it really DOES play a role. Yes, you need to be prepared to take advantage of any lucky break that comes your way, but you can’t produce that luck on command.
Maybe the OP will get “lucky” and have a relative die and leave them something… :rolleyes: But maybe what he REALLY needs is a job that pays a wage he and his family can live on. There really isn’t any other long term solution to his main problem.
Do you think ending unemployment benefits HELPS the unemployed? That’s what Ol’ Rand Paul seems to think.
I can accept a view of unemployment that says “we can’t pay you forever, get a job lazybones!” I cannot accept the view that continued checks to the unemployed HURTS the unemployed. It’s ridiculous and insulting.
Currently we’re in a weird stalemate. On the one hand, you have the Republicans who want to limit/decrease safety nets, such as Medicare and unemployment benefits. On the other, you have the Democrats who passed a game-changing health care law in the middle of a tenuous recovery, without fully understanding how it would work, how much it would cost, how it was going to be funded, and the impact to business, which ultimately means impact to workers.
So you have people who are tightening their belts because they’re afraid for their jobs (or out of work altogether), a government who is spending money like a Nigerian spammer with a stolen credit card, and business owners who are delaying doing anything until they get more data.
Yippee!