Odd, then, isn’t it, that the group didn’t actually exist during all of Kerry’s long service in the Senate or in any of his campaigns for it (not to mention his term as Lt. Gov. before that), until he declared for President. Then it somehow spontaneously arose and was rapidly organized and funded. What a remarkable coincidence that was!
Come on now.
It might be (I believe you). I just didn’t get that from the description, and I don’t have the energy to watch the ad.
I did omit the book. Most becuase I don’t know enough about it. I also wonder about the effect of these sorts of books (there are a pile written every election), but that’s a side issue.
You mean, until he declared for president and based his campaign heavily upon his service in Vietnam. Of course him running for president was what incited the Swift Boat Veterans to speak out against him.
I don’t think that’s a surprise. Winning the democratic primary has a way of getting people’s attention.
What’s your theory? The swift boat people all really liked Kerry and did this for no reason? Bought off with money? Brainwashed by Karl Rove? Let’s hear this conspiracy, if you’ve got a different theory.
The truth is simply enough to understand. Kerry served honorably, but after the war did and said things that really angered many of those he served with. Then when he made his service central in his campaign to be president these old enemies of his rose up against him and spoke out. They mostly spoke out about his actions after the war but also called into question some actions during the war. The actions during the war is a he said/she said with no real proof either way. The actions after the war are well documented and probably because of that three out of the four ads we saw in our earlier cite focused on that.
No conspiracy is needed to explain this.
What do you think he based all of his Senate campaigns on, then? And why did this “organization” not even fucking exist then?
Look up Jerome Corsi sometime. Let us know what you find out about him. “Brainwashed by Rove” is not the best term for the rest, but “acting in common interest” covers it.
No, only a desire to believe what one wishes to be true. Unfortunately, we deal with evidence here.
Perhaps the SwiftVets were mostly guys with RW politics and did not want any Dem ousting W?
… and, despite all their bleating about their own honor as veterans being besmirched by Kerry, were entirely willing to tell lies in the cause of re-electing a Republican?
Well, are any of them from Massachusetts? Few people care much about other states’ Lt. Governors or Senators.
Many people care about the President, as he directly represents them.
I am stating that the group was largely funded by republicans, and referring to the fact that many people making claims against Kerry flip-flopped against previous positions in order to make him look bad. The whole thing stunk to high heavens.
Maybe. I admit it’s possible this played into it.
But I think it’s much more likely that what Kerry’s commander said was the truth. He was angry with Kerry’s actions and statements after the war.
Many military people don’t like Democrats. But almost all of them really hate what they perceive as betrayal from anti war types like Jane Fonda. What Kerry said after the war really pissed these guys off. It’s as simple as that.
Human Action: If any of these people really were as concerned as they professed about Kerry’s qualifications for high office, and basic morality for that matter, what would be the difference that it was the Senate and not the Presidency at hand? Are you suggesting that nobody in Massachusetts would care, or what? The Swifties didn’t care enough even to exist, I remind you. I would also add, based on my own having lived through every single fucking campaign Kerry ever ran, that this shit was never even mentioned a single fucking time in any of them.
Few people care about other states’ Senators, you say? That’s not a well-supported opinion, to be charitable. Kerry was one of the most senior and influential leaders of his entire party, after a few terms, and it would be silly to claim that that was despite rather than because of his leadership and command of respect.
Leaving aside the fact that we know the guy was either lying or not in a position to say the things he said, what took him so damn long to say it?
Exactly. Nobody pays attention to Senators running for office nearly as much as a presidential election.
What was Captain Adrian Lonsdale lying about exactly?
I’m sure if you met him at a VFH hall long before Kerry’s presidential campaign and asked him over a drink what he thought about Kerry you’d probably get an earful. But no one would care because Kerry wasn’t running for president then.
Of course. No one disputes this. Who would you expect to fund an attack ad on a democratic candidate for president?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. Got a cite for this claim?
Dude. :dubious:
Are you going to address the question asked of you in response or not?
It could be that they didn’t think anyone in Massachusetts would care, or that Massachusetts deserved a scoundrel* like Kerry. More likely, the idea of John Kerry being a Senator in some far-off northeastern state** just wasn’t on their outrage-radar.
Kerry being elected Senator of Massachusetts just wouldn’t be the galvanizing force that his being nominated for President would be. Suddenly Kerry is on all their TVs, all the time, stumping for the highest office in the land, and not shying away from his service record. Phones start to ring, balls get rolling, money comes in, and there’s your SBVfT.
** Roy Hoffman is from Missouri; Bud Day was from Florida, John O’Neill was from California; Adrian Lonsdale is from Washington state.
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Few people care about other states’ Senators, you say? That’s not a well-supported opinion, to be charitable. Kerry was one of the most senior and influential leaders of his entire party, after a few terms, and it would be silly to claim that that was despite rather than because of his leadership and command of respect.
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Relative to other Senators, he was prestigious and respected enough, sure. But that’s nothing compared to the Presidency. There’s a reason voter turnout is vastly greater in years when the Presidency is up for election than when it’s not: people care more (among other reasons, sure, but that’s a major one).
How often does it happen that people from outside a Senator’s home state form an organization devoted to preventing his election? I mean, has it ever happened?
They would have to have an actual organization to make that decision, no? They didn’t.
Sticking with that story, huh? Well, I guess you have to.
Pretty much every fucking time, yes. Ever hear complaints from candidates about their opponents’ out-of-state funding sources? Or about candidates doing fundraising outside their home states? What the fuck do you call that?
shrug
That’s all you’ve got? It seems clear based on his own statements that Lonsdale didn’t buy 100% into all the swift boat claims, but he did feel strongly enough about Kerry that he signed the letter.
It’s entirely possible that he is simply telling the truth. He feels Kerry did serve honorably and led his men well. Yet due to his actions after the war he feels Kerry isn’t fit for command of the military. That’s entirely possible without being a lie.
I’ve answered all questions asked of me in this thread. Did I miss one? If so point it out.
No, they don’t. The default is, of course, not to form a 527 group and hit the campaign trail. The default is to mow the lawn, drink a beer, or watch the Packers game. Until one vet had the idea and got the ball rolling, you’ve just got a bunch of vets living their lives, with their own reasons for not speaking out about Kerry: inertia, sloth, lack of concern for the proud people of Massachusetts, belief that other vets wouldn’t join in, or whatever.
According to NYT, it was Hoffman that got the ball rolling:
There you go, perfectly plausible explanation: Brinkley’s biography gets Hoffman determined to “set the record straight”, and given the timing, there’s plenty of Republican money to finance the organization and plenty of press coverage for it…which wouldn’t be the case if Kerry was just a Senator, and not a Presidential candidate.
Makes more sense than your theory, which is what, again?
Not the same thing, this isn’t just writing checks.
Lots of groups oppose (or support) candidates in other states. Many political groups are national, and do that for many, or just a few, candidates. And it doesn’t just involve spending money - not that it would matter anyway, since money is the most practical way to participate in a race that’s not in your own state or district.