So I went to the county treasurer’s office this morning to take care of some title work on a car (formerly non-highway vehicle being rebranded for highway use, if it matters, and it’s in Kansas). I had all my paperwork in order and handed it to the clerk behind the counter. She looks through it, then hands me a form and says to sign at the X.
It’s a blank form, with spaces for name/address, make/model/year/VIN/odometer, insurance company and policy number, etc. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but stamped diagonally across it (bold black block letters at least two inches high obscuring the form underneath) it says “SIGNATURE FORM.” Down at the bottom in the signature block: "I affirm under penalty of perjury that all of the foregoing information is true and correct to the best of my knowledge … " blah blah blah, with something about criminal penalties for misrepresentation, and then a line to sign.
There’s no information on the form; all the spaces are blank, and because of that huge stamp across it, there’s not room to fill in all the spaces, or even read what some of them are supposed to be. I asked the clerk what information exactly I was supposed to be attesting to, since it was blank, but she could not or would not answer: “you just need to sign by the X.” She got snippy, I got snippier; apparently I was some kind of major nutjob or asshole for refusing to sign with all of the spaces blank. (I ended up filling it out the best I could before she would process the transaction, because I flat-out refused to sign it blank, and she was the supervisor on duty so nobody to appeal to.)
Was I so out of line? I got to thinking later about what could be done with a signed blank, and all I could think of would be attaching that signature to somebody else’s paperwork, but even that seems like it might cause big problems if a clerk was careless or worse. Have any others here run into a similar situation, and how did you handle it?
Maybe sign the form, and under your signature write "all spaces left blank "? This might work as evidence that any information added later was not your doing.
I once heard a third-hand story at a party* from a guy who was pressured into signing a long form that he was not given time to read, so he added the words “did not read” under his signature. He claimed it helped him avoid complications later.
(*makes me proud, it does… To post the best cite ever provided at the Dope! )
I’ve gotten into the habit of redlining documents before signing them. Carry a red pen. Cross out literally everything on the form, initialing each crossed out line. Sign.
I tried crossing out the attestation, since I could not verify non-existent information, but that was unacceptable; no alterations permitted. “This is a legal document; you need to sign it exactly as written to verify the information”, and the fact that there was no information to verify meant nothing to the clerk.
It sounds like someone at that office has a tidy little business selling new titles for stolen cars. If you had signed, your name could legitimize a stolen car.
I would be in contact with whoever you can think of to get this ended.
There is an attestation on the 1040 form right above where you sign it…and the instructions say that crossing it out not only invalidates the form, but you are subject to a fine for “filing a frivolous tax return.”
This is one of the weirdest stories I’ve heard. NO I would not have signed it. I would talk to the manager of the site and if that doesn’t resolve the issue I’d find out who is in charge of them (county board of supervisors?). It actually sounds like the clerk was just confused and had picked up the sample form instead of the correct form. Amazing.
It’s not unusual at a dealership to sign 2 blank copies of the title form when purchasing a new car. The dealer types them up later. They request 2 copies in case an error is made on the first - an error cannot be corrected on a title form, they must start from scratch.
I’m really not sure how that would work. If the clerk was using a form signed in blank to title a different, stolen car, the signer would not get theirs. Looks like that would be caught pretty quickly when John Honest Citizen came checking on the status of their title.
No, definitely not the sample. They had a whole stack of these blanks all overstamped “signature form.” She was the on-site supervisor, but I’ve got a query in to her boss.
I’ve never had that happen, but your state’s rules may differ. Here, they type up the title form and have you sign it when you come back in to pick it up (or just mail it to you unsigned).
I’m not sure how it would go either, although the fact that titles are actually issued by a state office based on paperwork from the county would allow ample opportunity for mutual finger-pointing (“You need to call the state to find out where your title is.” “We never received paperwork for your vehicle, so you’ll need to call the county to find out why.” Lather, rinse, repeat.). Also, in this state you don’t get a printed title if there is a lien on the vehicle (the title is “held electronically”), so you might not notice there’s a problem until the tags came up for renewal or the lien was paid off, which might allow many months for mischief.
However, what would be the point (or legal validity) of a signed and attested paper that didn’t actually say anything? I would not think the state could prosecute anybody for providing false information if the state only had a blank form without any information in the first place, so why collect it?
From my experience working in government systems, this is what I think actually happens:
The information is entered into the state computer system, which then prints it all out onto that form, which the previous title holder (you) is then supposed to sign, and it is filed.
But it takes a while to get that printout done (maybe the state system is old & slow), and having people wait around while that is being done slows down the workflow in the office, and annoys the customers. So they have come up with a system where they have customers sign the blank form, than later in the day, someone enters that information, and has the computer system print it out onto the already-signed form. Much more efficient way to run the office, and serve more customers faster. But it does mean you singing the form while it is still blank.
I would think the supervisor should have explained this to you when you questioned it, but maybe she doesn’t know herself. Possibly this procedure was devised by someone previously, and she never understood the ‘why’ – it’s just “the way we do it”. And she gets snippy when anyone questions that. (Such an attitude is not un-heard-of among government workers.)
This seems much more likely than any nefarious schemes. If these workers wanted to do some kind of title games with stolen vehicles, they could certainly come up with something less open – the do work in the County office, after all.
I think that’s fairly logical, t-bonham,except that the OP said the form had a big stamp on in that obscured some of the boxes. So what would happen when it was printed upon? In any case, ain’t no way I’m signing a blank form, no matter who says what.
I would never sign a blank form. I’ve seen too many cases where people signed a driver’s license application, and were automatically registered to vote although they were not eligible to do so (because they are not U.S. citizens). Sometimes it happens even if they tell the DMV staffer that they do NOT want to register. That’s a deportable offense and a huge PITA to fix.
Their electronic signature pad is broken, so this is the workaround (so says the deputy treasurer). They scan the signed form and the other papers and save them all in the system. “It’s perfectly safe” because the signed form can’t be used for anything without all of the rest of the papers, she says.
I have only a layman’s knowledge of document security, but I think she has even less than I do.
I have college students bring me forms for me to sign with nothing entered. I have them sit down and fill out their names and check the appropriate boxes. The nerve of them thinking I’d sign a blank form that includes options for waiving requirements, showing completion, or add a class late in the semester.
A “Signature form” is usually a form that you put your signature on, so that they have a copy of your signature on file. And it normally says something like “SIGNATURE FORM” on it, and has a place to enter your signature.
But the rest of that experience is so lame and offensive…