Please explain to me why anyone would want to commit voter fraud. It’s already a pain to vote. Even people with really close access to the polls don’t vote! We can’t get eligible voters to vote! The consequences of voter fraud are HUGE. So what makes you think that voter fraud is a problem? Seriously. I vote because I think it’s my duty, but I won’t lie and say that the process isn’t a pain in the ass.
I agree. Have you ever tried to get a replacement Social Security card or a name change done? Changing your name after marriage in some states is a huge pain in the ass. I have friends that have been married for YEARS and they don’t have their name changed legally. My wait at the SS office was so long years ago that I haven’t bothered to replace my last SS card after it was lost…I just use my tax return documents as proof of SSN when I need to.
But if you can make ID as easy as a voter registration change in Colorado (you can do it online) or getting your passport photo taken at Walgreen’s or just trotting down to your local post office…yeah…then I can see myself supporting that. Unless I start thinking about the costs of such a program…hmm…but again, voter fraud isn’t a problem, soooo.
Voter fraud is an old and well established tradition.
If it can be done it will be done.
I recall the old days of Daley in Chicago (not the current Daley but his dad). The mantra was, “Vote early and vote often.”
We can find examples around the world where there are “democratic elections” and the winner gets 99% of the vote.
Voter fraud needs to be guarded against without a doubt.
Doing that however is open to discussion and when the efforts in place seem to be doing the job one has to wonder why Tennessee needs to tighten the screws.
It is abundantly obvious this effort is to disenfranchise a particular group and nothing else. As such it should be opposed.
[QUOTE]
But…that was never proved.
The described *voter fraud * is committed by those in power in regions that are not democratic.
It would be more accurate to call it election fraud.
You’re not talking about some Mexican immigrant in TN who doesn’t have suffrage rights.
I feel like we do that already, no?
Florida shows how hard it would be for any one, two, or even two hundred non eligible voters to swing an election. Florida electors had a whole process of recounting those ballots. They argued over provisional ballots, butterfly ballots, voter rolls…those votes were scrutinized.
One other reason not to require ID for voting is that some states, like VA, haved moved to only mailing new driver’s licenses and ID cards - not issuing them immediately upon approval. I found this out last year when I went in to renew my driver’s license on the day it expired. So for two weeks I was without any form of picture ID, with only a receipt to prove I was legally able to drive. So not only would people who want to make sure they’re able to vote need to jump through the hoops of getting the materials to obtain an ID card, they’d also have to have secure & stable enough address to wait at least two weeks to get the ID card in the mail. This also adds a real burden to candidates who are working to increase voter turnout in their area.
As someone with friends and relatives in that 25% of African-Americans without valid ID, it really isn’t too difficult to live without a state ID. I have a friend who makes 6 figures a year and is comfortable financially. Yet she has her paycheck deposited to a Visa direct-deposit card. She has her rent and other recurring bills linked to this card, so has all the convenience of a debit card, but no need for a checking account. You don’t need an ID for this type of set-up. And if you don’t have a checking account, you just don’t accept checks from other people.
It is also possible to make a deposit into a bank account without an ID, and to write a check for cash at a grocery store service counter & have them cash it using a loyalty or check cashing card as ID. Or, you sign your check over to someone you trust and they’d cash it for you. So you get your check cashed, buy your friend lunch or give them money for gas, and then use cash for everything. (I must say, after having my checking acct wiped out recently because my debit card number was stolen, I’m not seeing the appeal of doing everything online or with a debit/credit card. Cash seems to be a lot safer right now.)
Colorado does the same thing. When I had a purse stolen, I had to go replace my ID. Well, it took two weeks for it to come in the mail. My little piece of paper was good enough for the airport but not good enough to access cash at the bank. Or vote with. 
As long as easily obtained does not = easily obtained via fraudulent documentation
[QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo]
This is not, strictly speaking, true. A driver’s license is required for operating a vehicle on public roads. There is no other government regulated activity that I’m aware of that require a driver’s license.
[/QUOTE]
No, you are wrong. That’s why I said ‘de facto’. You can use your drives license as a form of ID in most regulated government activities that require some proof of picture ID. I’ve used mine on applications for clearance, for instance, or when I got my passport (in conjunction with my birth certificate). I’ve used it many times to provide a picture ID for HR when starting a new job…it’s almost always the primary picture ID requested, along with a birth certificate, social security card or passport. Also, I wasn’t just talking about government activities, but every day activities (as I’ve mentioned numerous time) such as buying beer at a store, or tobacco, or filling a prescription…even checking your ID when using a credit card. So, ‘strictly speaking’ it IS true that in the US a drivers license is the de facto form of picture ID will be used by most people in their day to day lives.
Really? So, if I wanted to get a 6 pack tonight I can show them, what? My library card? My credit card? Sure, I could bring along my passport and birth certificate, but how many people do that? In just about every case where someone in the general public is asked to provide ID, what is actually being asked of them is to show their drivers license. Seriously…what country do you live in where you don’t use your drivers license as a valid form of ID on pretty much a daily basis? Hell, when I got my passport, THEY asked me for my drivers license, as well as a birth certificate and social security card! It was (at that time…no idea if it’s still true) the ONLY form of picture ID they would accept (they wouldn’t even accept my military ID at the time, even though it had my picture on it) besides another passport (which I didn’t have when I was in my 20’s).
-XT
u mad bro?
I live in the United States, and a DL is not required (in your words, “needed”) for anything other than operating a vehicle on public roads. The fact that people use it for other things doesn’t mean it’s required (again, in your words “needed”) for those other things.
In other words, you’re wrong, strictly speaking.
[QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo]
u mad bro?
[/QUOTE]
Me? Naw, I’m not mad Bo, in either sense of the term. You aren’t mad either…just out of touch I guess.
You keep shifting things around, Bo. You acknowledge that ‘people’ (read businesses, state, local and even the Federal government, individuals, etc) use them for things other than driving, but then say they aren’t ‘needed’…presumably because you think they aren’t required, even though they are whenever a picture form of ID is required. True…you don’t HAVE to have a drivers license to do anything more than drive. However, if you want to buy that 6 pack, or those cigarettes, or HR lists a drivers license of one of several alternative forms of picture ID (the other being a passport that you might not have), well, I guess you will need it after all…ehe?
Sorry Bo…perhaps you never buy anything, or cash a check, or get a new job, or use a credit card, or buy booze at a restaurant or from a store, or purchase tobacco products, or…or…or…or…
Living off the grid can be a good thing, Bo, but sometimes you just have to put down that joint, get off the snowboard and participate. Seriously, man, go out and get yourself a cold one on me…but don’t forget your ID, if you actually want to drink that beer.
[QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo]
In other words, you’re wrong, strictly speaking.
[/QUOTE]
If you say so, Bo. 
Personally, I think this is a case of ‘I dinna thin’ that word means what you thin’ it means…’
-XT
So, you admit I’m correct, but argue with me anyways, while hurling thinly veiled insults.
:rolleyes:
No, Bo…I pointed out that you were wrong while trying to make light of it by making a joke, so that you wouldn’t feel too bad. I’m sorry you were wrong, and sorry you thought it was an insult…and sorry that you seem to still want to argue whatever point you think you are making in all of this. I’d say that most Americans who live, work and function in our society are going to realize, if they think about it, how often they are asked to provide some form of ID…and how, overwhelmingly, that ID is presented in the form of their drivers license.
-XT
Why are you so hellbent on insisting that if people don’t live their lives in the fashion you do, or the fashion you believe is normal – buying alcohol and cigarettes and applying for jobs and flying on planes and writing checks in 2011 – that they’re not “participating” in society?
And even if someone isn’t participating in that fashion, are you therefore saying that it’s perfectly okay to disenfranchise them from voting?
[QUOTE=tumbleddown]
Why are you so hellbent on insisting that if people don’t live their lives in the fashion you do, or the fashion you believe is normal – buying alcohol and cigarettes and applying for jobs and flying on planes and writing checks in 2011 – that they’re not “participating” in society?
[/QUOTE]
Ok. How are they participating in our society without doing those things? The point isn’t that it’s the fashion I live in (as if I’m the only one), it’s the fashion that the majority of Americans, be they poor or rich or middle class schlubs like me live in. If they have a regular job they would need ID. If they use a bank they would need ID. If they have and use a credit card they would need ID. If they want to cash their checks (from their work) they would need ID…even if it’s just to set up the initial banking account and direct deposit. Ok…not everyone buys booze or tobacco, or goes out to restaurants for dinner and uses a credit card. You can use cash for everything if you want (assuming you can cash your check), and drinking alcohol or smoking is not healthy in any case, and certainly not required. And not everyone has to fly regularly…or at all for that matter. And not everyone has to or can drive either…if you live in a city you could get by with mass transit.
No, that’s separate from the point I was making that Bo was responding to, which is that a drivers license is the de facto ID in the US, the one used by the majority of people to identify themselves in most situations. As for the other, I already said that I’m cool with giving people who don’t have a drivers license an acceptable picture ID free of charge if they can’t afford it…or not require it at all, since I said that this seems to be a problem looking for a solution. I think that in the majority case, people are going to have a drivers license, but it doesn’t seem that voter fraud at the voting booth is a major issue in any case.
-XT
No, they would need sufficient documentation to fill out an I-9. (Like a voter registration card combined with a social security card. If Ohio’s voter ID bill passes, someone possessing only those documents could get a job but not vote at a polling place.)
You do not need ID to use a credit card.
You admitted that I was right, but still insist I was wrong. How… droll. :rolleyes:
But the point I was making was that you said a DL was “needed” when in fact, it is not required. Other forms of ID will work, and the only thing that requires a DL, as you admitted above, is the operation of a motor vehicle on public roads.
I have no idea what you think you are gaining by arguing a point you already conceded.
[QUOTE=Lord Feldon]
No, they would need sufficient documentation to fill out an I-9. (Like a voter registration card combined with a social security card. If Ohio’s voter ID bill passes, someone possessing only those documents could get a job but not vote at a polling place.)
[/QUOTE]
I’m looking down at the HR form we use for in-processing right here, and it says you need either 1) A valid drivers license and (either) Social Security Card or Birth Certificate or 2) A valid passport. That’s it. No where does it say anything about a voter registration card. And that seems to jib with my memories of other places I’ve in-processed to.
Now…if you are saying that in Ohio they will take some other form of ID AS WELL AS a drivers license, then sure…never said any differently. But a drivers license is still the de facto ID that is used in a large majority of cases where an ID is asked for.
No? I get asked for my ID just about every time I use a credit card. Granted, I have an unusual name (to Americans), but I can’t be the only one asked for an ID when I go to a bank or use my credit card at a store.
[QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo]
I have no idea what you think you are gaining by arguing a point you already conceded.
[/QUOTE]
Whatever you say, Bo.
It’s not my lookout that you are having trouble comprehending what I wrote, Bo…that’s all on you man.
-XT
Those are internal forms specific to those companies only, not to every single person with a “regular job.” Workers are not legally required to possess a drivers license or a passport. Some employers might choose to go above and beyond what they’re required to do to identify workers, but that is not universal.
It doesn’t have anything to do with Ohio. I only brought up Ohio as an example of a state where the legal requirements for getting a job will soon be much less strict than the requirements for voting. You do not need a drivers license to get a “regular job” in any state. You might need one to get some jobs or even most jobs, but you do not need one to get any job.
Being asked for ID and having to show ID are not the same thing. The major credit card companies forbid retailers from requiring ID to complete a credit card purchase. ETA: Except American Express.
Well let’s see, they’re living. They’re buying and eating food. They’re engaging with their friends and family.
You realize that a lot of people do not and cannot work, right? You realize that a lot of people do not and cannot travel, right? Are those people failing to “participate” in society?
[quote[The point isn’t that it’s the fashion I live in (as if I’m the only one), it’s the fashion that the majority of Americans, be they poor or rich or middle class schlubs like me live in.[/quote]
And so deviation from the majority is unacceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated?
I reiterate my point: not everyone can or does work. Not everyone can or does use a bank. People who have a limited low income do not use credit cards or cash checks (which they don’t get from the work that they don’t do).
And these people are citizens and these people DO vote and should not be encumbered in doing so.
And your HR form doesn’t trump the requirements of the U.S. federal government which lists, as acceptable forms of identification for the purposes of fulfilling I-9 requirements as the following:
[quote]
ONE of the following:
[ul]
[li]United States Passport[/li][li]Permanent Resident Card or Alien Registration Receipt Card (I-551)[/li][li]Temporary Resident Card (I-688)[/li][li]Employment Authorization Document (I-766, I-688B, or I-688A)[/li][li]Foreign Passport with temporary I-551 stamp[/li][li]For aliens authorized to work only for a specific employer, foreign passport with Form I-94 authorizing employment with this employer[/li][/ul]
OR an identity establishing document:
[ul]
[li]Driver’s license issued by a state or outlying possession[/li][li]ID card issued by a state or outlying possession[/li][li]Native American tribal document[/li][li]Canadian driver’s license or ID card with a photograph (for Canadian aliens authorized to work only for a specific employer)[/li][li]School ID card with a photography[/li][li]Voter’s registration card[/li][li]U.S. Military card or draft record[/li][li]Miltary dependent’s ID Card[/li][/ul]
presented ALONG WITH an eligibility establishing document:
[ul]
[li]Social Security account number card without employment restrictions[/li][li]Original or certified copy of a birth certificate with an official seal issued by a state or local government agency[/li][li]Certification of Birth Abroad[/li][li]US Citizen ID Card[/li][li]Native American tribal document[/li][li]Form I-94 authorizing employment with this employer (for aliens authorized to work only for a specific employer)[/li][/quote]
[/ul]
So yes someone could legally work in this country with a school ID and a birth certificate. Or a voter registration card and social security card (neither of which have a photo). Someone better inform your HR department.