Requiring photo ID to vote

[XT]

[QUOTE=Lord Feldon]
Those are internal forms specific to those companies only, not to every single person with a “regular job.” Workers are not legally required to possess a drivers license or a passport. Some employers might choose to go above and beyond what they’re required to do to identify workers, but that is not universal.
[/QUOTE]

I work for the state, and they were absolutely required or I wouldn’t have been given the job. It’s always been a requirement everywhere I’ve worked to provide valid ID when starting a new job…even when I worked at 7-11. Now…part of that may be that I’m not white, so perhaps I’ve being asked for a level of ID greater than others in this thread.

t doesn’t have anything to do with Ohio. You do not need a drivers license to get a “regular job” in any state. You might need one to get some jobs or even most jobs, but you do not need one to get any job.

You need a valid form of ID presented with your tax deduction information if nothing else…again, at least in my experience. Many places I’ve worked (including my current job) also require 2 forms of ID when you in-process. I can’t recall a job I’ve taken, including when I worked at Highs or 7-11 that didn’t require me to produce an ID when I started.

Being asked for ID and having to show ID are not the same thing. Every major credit card company forbids retailers from requiring ID to complete a credit card purchase.

Do you have a cite for that? Does that mean that if they ask me for it I don’t have to give it to them, and they still have to sell me whatever I’m buying? As I said, I get asked for ID constantly…at the bank, at the store (when I’m using a credit card) at a restaurant (again, when using a credit card), when picking up my prescriptions, when I fly…are you saying that even though they ask for it I don’t have to give it to them, yet I can have an expectation of getting whatever service I’m asking for anyway? Because if you are and if you have a cite it would make my life much easier if I didn’t have to use my ID all the time.

-XT

[XT]

[QUOTE=tumbleddown]
Well let’s see, they’re living. They’re buying and eating food. They’re engaging with their friends and family.
[/QUOTE]

And they are doing all of those things without any form of ID at all? Nothing? Ok…fair enough…they are participating in society. Unlike with Bo, I do concede the point to you.

And so deviation from the majority is unacceptable and shouldn’t be tolerated?

You are putting words in my mouth…I never said any of this.

And these people are citizens and these people DO vote and should not be encumbered in doing so.

I don’t see it as all that much of on encumbrance to have to have SOME type of ID, but I already conceded that it’s a solution looking for a problem, so I’ll leave it at that.

And your HR form doesn’t trump the requirements of the U.S. federal government which lists, as acceptable forms of identification for the purposes of fulfilling I-9 requirements as the following:

Well, that’s more detailed that my current HR division requires, but that seems consistent with other places I’ve worked at. And the first line of the ‘Or’ section is ‘Driver’s license issued by a state or outlying possession’, which is the document that the majority of people are going to have on that list…which, to me, again simply means that a drivers license is the de facto ID most places require. That doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY ID that can be used, just that in most cases when you need to provide an ID a drivers license will be on the list of IDs one could use…and it’s the one most likely to be in the possession of most Americans.

And I think that pretty much exhausts the conversational potential on de facto ID’s. I would be interested in that cite from Lord Feldon, since if I don’t actually have to produce an ID when asked then that would make my life much easier, as I travel quite a bit, eat out quite a bit, buy stuff at the store quite a bit, and use the bank quite a bit…all of which demand ID from me constantly. If I can thumb my nose at them and still expect to get service, well…that would make XT a very happy puppy.

-XT

[Lord_Feldon]

@xtisme

Do you have a cite for that?

Mastercard:

A merchant must not refuse to complete a MasterCard card transaction solely
because a cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment
of a card at the POI refuses to provide additional identification information,
except as specifically permitted or required by the Standards. A merchant may
require additional identification from the cardholder if the information is
required to complete the transaction, such as for shipping purposes. A
merchant in a country or region that supports use of the MasterCard Address
Verification Service (AVS) may require the cardholder’s ZIP or postal code to
complete a cardholder-activated terminal (CAT) transaction, or the cardholder’s
address and ZIP or postal code to complete a mail order, phone order, or
e-commerce transaction.

Visa recently changed its website around, but their rule is quoted here:

Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot
refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID. Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures.

This brochure from the Indiana state government says that American Express also doesn’t allow a purchase to be refused because of a lack of ID, but I can’t find a copy of their rule anywhere.

@xtisme

Does that mean that if they ask me for it I don’t have to give it to them, and they still have to sell me whatever I’m buying?

Correct. I mean, realistically the worst that happens to them if they refuse the purchase is that they get a form letter reminding them of the rules, but they’re still contractually obligated to not refuse the purchases because of a lack of ID. (They could theoretically have their right to take the cards at all revoked, but it would take a pretty egregious situation for a company to turn down the interchange fees.)

[XT]

Ok…thanks for the cite. I will put that to the test and see how it goes. It seems pretty straight forward, so I wonder if this requiring ID thing is just a bluff on the parts of stores and such. My guess is that they will refuse to sell me whatever I’m buying if I don’t produce and ID, but if I push then maybe they will back down. We’ll see.

Anyway, thanks again for the cite.

-XT

[flickster]

the above list of I-9 requirements are not complete.

Here’s the full list.
You would need one from Group A
OR
one from Group B PLUS one from Group C
I-9 Requirements

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@xtisme

It’s not my lookout that you are having trouble comprehending what I wrote, Bo…that’s all on you man.

-XT

You wrote “need”, meaning “requires”. You are wrong. You’re also wrong about needing a photo ID to use a credit card, as Lord Feldon showed you. Yet, inexplicably, you fail to acknowledge that you have been wrong.

I’ll also point out, so that the point isn’t lost on others, that at least once you failed to acknowledge being wrong even after you conceded the point.

[XT]

You are right, Bo, I’ve been remiss…Lord Feldon was right about the credit card thing, at least WRT the official policy, if not the de facto policy that many merchants seem to take. Still, s/he was quite correct, and I should have explicitly said so…and explicitly said I was wrong about that. Thanks for pointing that out. You were still wrong, however, Bo…I didn’t concede the point, and still don’t. I still think that for the majority of daily needs, for the vast majority of US citizens, a drivers license is the de facto ID that is most asked for, and that the majority of people ‘need’ it in their day to day lives.

-XT

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@xtisme

You are right, Bo, I’ve been remiss…Lord Feldon was right about the credit card thing, at least WRT the official policy, if not the de facto policy that many merchants seem to take. Still, s/he was quite correct, and I should have explicitly said so…and explicitly said I was wrong about that. Thanks for pointing that out. You were still wrong, however, Bo…I didn’t concede the point, and still don’t. I still think that for the majority of daily needs, for the vast majority of US citizens, a drivers license is the de facto ID that is most asked for, and that the majority of people ‘need’ it in their day to day lives.

-XT

Ah, I see. So now you’re changing the meaning of “need” to mean something it doesn’t mean, in order to not have to admit to me that you were wrong.

Who do you think you’re fooling, besides yourself?

[XT]

Bo, it means exactly what it meant when I wrote what I wrote. The fact that you couldn’t understand what I wrote, and apparently don’t know what ‘de facto’ means is, again, not my lookout.

I’m not trying to fool anyone, Bo…so I can’t answer your last question there. Who did you think you were fooling when you tried to spin what I said into some concession that I was wrong and you were right?

-XT

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@xtisme

Bo, it means exactly what it meant when I wrote what I wrote. The fact that you couldn’t understand what I wrote, and apparently don’t know what ‘de facto’ means is, again, not my lookout.

I’m not trying to fool anyone, Bo…so I can’t answer your last question there. Who did you think you were fooling when you tried to spin what I said into some concession that I was wrong and you were right?

-XT

I know that “de facto” means “literally” or “in fact”, a fact that seems to escape you. cite

[

@dictionary.com

de fac·to   
–noun
1.
in fact; in reality

](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/de+facto)

I also know that you don’t “literally” or “in fact” need a drivers license to do anything except operate a motor vehicle on public roadways, another fact that seems to escape you.

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

The last time I lost my ID gas was $4.40 a gallon as it seems to be heading now.

Fuel costs for all the running around to the social security office, county court house, and three trips to Secretary of State (Michaneese for DMV, and other state interaction things), two trips to my hold high school totaled $60.

See the first trip “oh the federal government passed an ID law, you need things from these three columns”. Well Social security office was 40 miles from the Sec of State. So I get a copy of my birth certificate, social security card, and GED transcript. That satisfied the first two columns, and one would think a GED transcript would satisfy the third as a school record.

Nope, on the second 40 mile round trip to the Sec State I’m told a GED transcript is not a school record. I ask for clarification on the handout of things I needed where it gave guidance on what was a valid school record. She couldn’t answer me. I asked how she knew, and she said something about it being the rules. I asked here where these rules were written so that I could read them and not waste a bunch of gas on their fucked up, retarded, and brain damaged wild goose chase. I pointed out right where it had the name, and notarization stamp of a local school on the GED transcript.

I was pretty angry at that point. All I wanted was an apology for them wasting a bunch of gas money by their vagueness. I got neither an in-depth version of the rules, nor an apology. So I left. Most of my interactions were pleasant there and I didn’t want to cause a scene yelling at some lacky. Just a hint of understanding would have did wonders.

As I left I heard a similar scene. Some woman was having much more difficulty than I getting her ID papers in order. She broke down in tears over it. Apparently there was significant complications because she didn’t have contact with her birth parents, or something, which were needed for certain records. I realized why people behind the counter were so calloused and ice cold over the issue. Having ID drama everyday wears you down.

Anyway I drove back to the very same school, went to the vary same office and got a copy of my high school transcript, which was in the very same file cabinet in the very same folder.

Fuel $60
Birth certificate copy was IIRC $15
The ID was IIRC $18

So $90+ dollars to get an ID there, assuming no complications. $30ish at minimum, and apparently much difficulty in certain situations. Sure looks like a poll tax to me.

[Skammer]

Update from Tennessee:

[Tennessee State Attorney General] Says Voter ID Requirement Would Be Unconstitutional

State Attorney General Robert Cooper says in an opinion delivered to lawmakers this morning that a bill requiring photo identification to vote would likely violate the state and federal constitutions.

Cooper noted that Indiana, which has a similar law on the books, offers free IDs. That raises the possibility that lawmakers could correct the problem by passing other legislation that would give IDs free-of-charge to people who cannot afford to purchase them at drivers license offices.

I’m satisfied with that as long as acquiring the free ID is not an unreasonable burden on potential voters.

[Dallas_Jones]

Please people!

Vote by mail is the only way to go. I haven’t been asked for ID in many years because I haven’t had to go to a polling place to vote for I don’t know how long.

Even before vote by mail became law in Oregon the local county clerk encouraged everyone to register as permanent absentee voters and recieve the ballot in the mail. It saved her money.

And Washington just last week has officially joined the “Sane In The Rain” states with entirely vote by mail.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2011/04/05/vote-by-mail-is-now-the-law-in-washington/

You can register to vote on line and change your party affiliation whenever you want, without ever seeing a live person. There is a spot on the envelope for a signature that is supposed to be compared to a signature kept on file but I don’t really believe they look very hard. My signature on file from 20 years ago probably doesn’t look anything like the one I sign now. And I would know if my ballot got rejected because they are required to notify you so you can challenge the rejection.

It’s fun! It’s easy! You can vote for the whole family if you like. Well, Ok… that is technically illegal.

Except for that rare civic minded homeless person, they get left out in the cold, so to speak, because you do need an address.

[tumbleddown]

@Dallas_Jones

Except for that rare civic minded homeless person, they get left out in the cold, so to speak, because you do need an address.

I’m sure that for these purposes various shelters and mental health centers could be used as one’s legal address, much as they’re used as the address for the purpose of SSI benefits.

Meanwhile, in Pennsylvania, you can only vote by mail by voting absentee, and must swear that you’ll be out of town or encumbered by unbreakable obligation on election day, or that you are medically incapable of going to your polling place. Then your ballot isn’t even counted unless the race is close.

[Bricker]

@Skammer

Update from Tennessee:

[Tennessee State Attorney General] Says Voter ID Requirement Would Be Unconstitutional

I’m satisfied with that as long as acquiring the free ID is not an unreasonable burden on potential voters.

The Tenneesee legislature has before it HB1682 / SB1384, which would provide for free photo ID cards to voters in need. That would appear to solve the issue raised by AG’s opinion (and in this thread!)

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Works for me.