I’ve noticed that the people who think America is the greatest nation on earth are often the ones who have little experience with the outside world.
I also find it depressing that we tend to equate greatness with owning stuff, not with happiness, or health.
From an RFK speech (1968):
And this is one of the great tasks of leadership for us, as individuals and citizens this year. But even if we act to erase material poverty, there is another greater task, it is to confront the poverty of satisfaction - purpose and dignity - that afflicts us all. Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for the people who break them. It counts the destruction of the redwood and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and counts nuclear warheads and armored cars for the police to fight the riots in our cities. It counts Whitman’s rifle and Speck’s knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children. Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country, it measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it can tell us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans.
This is a parody post, right?
Elaborate on this if you would… I’m not seeing how the collapse of the Soviet Union was a bad thing.
When wasn’t this the case? I kind of doubt it’s ever been any different, except when that sort of thing was common and people didn’t even care. I’ve never seen anyone called out in public or in social situations for saying something bigoted; at best people look really uncomfortable and quickly change the topic.
And one of the country’s largest problems is the lack of visibility that comes from being geographically and socially disparate, and the lack of understanding and empathy that comes along with it. It’s awfully hard for some white farmer in SW Nebraska to have a lot of understanding of how life is in say… the poorer and blacker parts of New Orleans, and vice-versa. So it’s easy for people to make a lot of comfortable assumptions that politicians absolutelly play to and encourage, and then vote accordingly. Or not vote, because they’ve been convinced that their votes don’t count.
Well there is some misunderstanding in those points, not quite higgnorance. 
Note that distrusting social media companies and and religious institutions is usually not a component of the MAGA authoritarian mind set. Also, finances was noted as the main reason why many voters got discouraged with the democrats in the last election, but it was more of a protest against the economical status in 2024.
IMHO the Republicans got one huge thing wrong, they assumed the main reason was “being woke” or other good things the Democrats were doing. So republicans decided that finances could be ignored and demolish the good things the government was doing was what the people wanted.
As I noted, that is hubris of Napoleonic proportions. It is not being naive as @Banquet_Bear accuses one in her tirades, American history shows that a lot can change very quickly. and I don’t see the economy getting better unless Trump and henchmen stop the stupid tariff war and gets better men and woman for the administration. Sure, the Democrats are not very effective now, but that is due to the “winner takes all” way the elections and congress is set.
Very little progress can be made when Republicans now are figuring out that they can “safely” ignore public opinion. But then, to the issue of people noticing that their finances are not looked at by current rulers they voted for to make the economy better, one has to add the issue of rulers that are willfully ignoring the opinion of many moderates that voted for them.
I think it is more naive to think that therefore there is no way that they will lose at least the House or not expect that Republicans will have an even lesser advantage in the senate when 2026 comes along.
The fight before that has to be not only about pressuring local useless Republican leaders, but pressuring media and religious institution into doing the right thing. And, because many here are not naive, the fight will always go on, on to pressure the democrats to do the right thing.
I think that what madmonk was saying was that many Soviet citizens believed the USSR was both durably successful and a force for good. They were shocked and bewildered when it abruptly fell apart, and were unwilling to entertain anyone telling them the USSR had been a force for bad, not good, in the larger world. Their feel-good delusions were more attractive than was reality.
The parallels to current attitudes of many USAians about the USA are obvious. A certain number of people in this thread are essentially espousing that idea: the USA was good, can be good again, and we’re just in a spot 'o bother right now that will probably pass. Others suggest the USA has always been, and is now, irredeemably evil in it’s core and a force for bad in the world.
Related but distinct point:
Whether the collapse of the USSR was “good” or “bad” depends strongly on what scale & timespan you’re talking about. They avoided a violent revolution and they avoided being invaded. Two good features. But millions of people were impoverished, and many died, or died earlier, from the consequences of that. Pensioners with worthless pensions freezing, starving, or unable to get medical care, etc.
For a brief period it seemed Yeltsin’s Russia might become a responsible member of the West. Then Putin showed up. Is Russia today better or worse for the rest of the world than the old Soviet Union would have been had it survived until now? One can argue either side easily. Is real current Russia or hypotheical current USSR better for the average Russian today? Again arguable.
There are people who believe that if no country was larger or more powerful than, e.g. New Zealand, then everybody would play nice because nobody would be big enough to lord it over the others. History suggests that doesn’t work all that well. Better benign giants than evil ones.
This is not directed at you because you aren’t espousing this belief, but it’s patently absurd considering how New Zealand is a country of five million people with an industrial capacity that would dwarf ant pre-industrial state.
If you waved a magic wand and balkanized the planet into New Zealand sized chunks, it wouldn’t take very long at all, on the historical scale, for empires and unions to form.
This is the point. People think “things are okay,” and from that rationalise staying as the moral or only practical choice. They are not considering “dramatically worse FOR YOU” as a realistic possibility. Chances are, they are right, but even so, I would not bet on those odds.
An enormous part of our population are, or are descended from, people who came here seeking economic security. Not for enlightenment ideals of liberal democracy but for “the streets paved with gold.” Or more realistically for free homestead land. Once here and realizing the streets were in fact not paved with gold, they figured that even if they would not get accepted as social peers, they could still have a chance at that economic security (and more recently, at least a job that while menial here, made enough to send remittances to those at home). So they went for that.
I think you sum it up nicely, but there is one more factor that I think we should consider: I think that the USSR was unable to be reformed and there were too many inherent flaws in its systems; when they did try to reform the Soviet Union, it collapsed. Given that I think collapse was probably the only outcome for the USSR and given its capacity to unleash nuclear Armageddon, I think implosion was the preferable outcome.
I feel the same about the US, that any attempt to reform it will lead to its collapse, that it is too corrupt, too culturally polarized and too much of its citizenry is overtly hostile to democracy. Given all that and given America’s capacity to end life on earth, I think that implosion is the best outcome.
Having said that, of course I would have rather America reform, of course I’d like to see the oligarchs power curtailed, of course I’d like to see Trump voters realize that they are part of a fascist movement, but I don’t see any of that happening.
Like I said, I lived in Russia under Yeltsin and then Putin (grad school and then work). I remember when former Soviet states and Eastern Bloc countries started taking down statues of Lenin and other Soviet icons and the backlash from some Russians was very similar to what I heard in the US when confederate statues started coming down, almost identical arguments. There is a sizable segment of the US that simply won’t accept reform because that reform will entail crossing too many cultural fault lines.
ETA: I could live here and keep my head down. I’m straight white and I could stay out of trouble, but I don’t want to have to live that kind of life, I don’t want to have to not see reality just to get by.
A piece of advice: You should really, really, really stay in your bad, bad, bad threads. The only thing you accomplish here1 is to show Non-Americans that their prejudice about ignorant Americans is true. And quite possibly American’s prejudice about American ignorance.
1 And every other thread on international issues, politics, economics, engineering , science and culture.
I’m going to disagree with you re: our friend @Beckdawrek . I fundamentally disagree with the perspective, but it’s useful to be aware that there are people who think like this, and I don’t think it’s as uncommon as I’d like to believe. A lot of us here have more international experience, and I think we forget how deep and pervasive is American propaganda that it is the first, best, and only place to be.
I’ve encouraged friends to consider emigrating, and the reaction has been an almost universal version of what Beck says, just not couched in such definitive terms. My discussions with friends never went anywhere, and it wasn’t until another thread where Beck mentioned similar thoughts that I realized it was because deep down, they shared her opinions.
Here’s the rub. Ok, so here’s a rub (there are many). Do I flee to a better place, or do I stay here and try to make things better? For now, fleeing isn’t an option, as Mrs. H and I don’t want to leave our aging mothers behind. And neither of them is fleeing with us - both would rather just accept their fate than endure an international move.
And if/when Mrs. H and I leave, where are we going to go? I’m a decade and a half from being able to draw Social Security (if it even exists by then), so I’d have to go where there’s a job for me. That means I’d have to go somewhere where English is spoken, and I’m sure they have enough native people looking for jobs, they don’t need a guy with a funny American accent competing for scarce jobs. And the cost of living. And the weather that I’m not prepared for. And the culture shock. And will we be welcome where we go?
As I look at it, I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place, and all I can do is wait to see how things shake out.
Abandoning mothers is bad karma, absolutely. But lay the groundwork now. Do some research. Start learning the language of your desired destination.¹ Figure out what skills might get you a job elsewhere. If you say “in 2030, I’ll be living in Country X,” you can go a LONG way to making that happen if you really start working toward it now. Some culture shock in inevitable, and there will always be things about the US that you miss, but it’s not like the locals will throw rocks at you. Wherever you go, there are SOME Americans there already.
¹If I had a dime for everyone who said, “Oh, I just can’t learn another language,” I’d have a lot of dimes. Not saying that’s you, just it’s really common. Not without an accent, okay, but anyone who puts in the time can learn a language well enough to hold a job in it. It just takes hundreds of hours of study, which is feasible on the timescale of a few years.
How many people doing the most arguing with the subject of this thread are actually here now? In the cold light of morning, I don’t think I’m invested enough in this particular angle to argue someone else’s point of view effectively, and it sure doesn’t seem like the mood that triggered this thread is continuing, so is there any point left?
I’m 90 percent certain that if we leave, it will be for the UK. I speak the language (well, we can probably understand each other 95% of the time). I could probably get a job in my field, especially since I’ve read that they’re having a hard time filling those jobs. Culturally, I know enough about British culture from watching YouTube to not offend (the main rules seem to be: don’t tip (that’s not a thing), always offer to pay for a round, don’t talk about religion, and always have a tea kettle on). The cost of living and the northern latitude are my biggest concerns.
Well said, as usual. I just saw a post from a friend who emigrated to Portugal a few years ago. Getting their residency cards is a constant hassle, and Portugal is changing their laws regarding that effort. If people think the wheels grind slowly in America, they should try dealing with a foreign bureaucracy. His wife finally got hers 13 months after applying. The government can’t seem to decide when someone’s time in the country should start. Seems like an easy item to resolve, but it’s bottled up in the courts.
A fair point.
I don’t deny it’s a fact. The problem for me is that no matter how clear-eyed I might be I can not move somewhere else. I am old, sick and don’t have the money/resources to make another country overlook that.
The fuck you aren’t insensitive - it took until THIS post for you to even acknowledge that any Americans might be suffering under this regime. It was all about how those who didn’t leave were complicit and guilty a deserved a horrible fate.
You just don’t want to believe that some of us have no choice. Not every one can leave even if they want to do so.
I don’t hate you for leaving - I hate you for saying those who can’t leave are as guilty as the worst of the worst. I guess we don’t pray hard enough or something, right?
^ This is also an issue with leaving.
I used to wonder what was going on on Easter Island when the last tree was cut down… but I have a terrible feeling we might find out ourselves. Only it won’t be an island, it will be an entire planet.
A lot of Americans who have never been out of their country are absolutely convinced the everyone else in the world will abuse them if they set foot abroad. In fact, I once told a co-worker that I had spent time in France and been treated quite well by the French and she still insisted I was only fooling myself and that that couldn’t be true. It’s a very persistent notion. I’d say it might be linked to folks whose families fled persecution abroad but that never seems to be the case - it always seems to be people whose families have been here quite awhile.
I guess it’s another form of American Exceptionalism.
^ This.
It’s because of all the preceding posts where he basically said that anyone who didn’t leave was a complicit fascist who deserved to go down the shitter.
No, you festering asshole, it’s because of all the posts where you said those who didn’t leave were guilty and deserved an awful fate. It’s not a pissing contest about who is suffering worse. It’s not any of the things you think it’s about. I have told you plainly and you just won’t accept that your lack of sympathy for those who CAN NOT leave is what made you a piece of shit.
You fucking, lying, hypocrite - you do not. If you did you would have expressed some sympathy or regret for those caught in the meatgrinder from your very first post. But no, you go on about “triggers” (which is a word I associate with MAGA types - how did you vote in the last election, hmm?)
It is entirely possible to be both rich and in a dystopia. But of course, in the US it’s all about money.
Yep. And if you aren’t rich you don’t deserve help, you don’t deserve food or medicine or anything, No right to safety. Not even the right to live.
^ This. Do you want “nicer stuff” or guaranteed health care that won’t bankrupt you, a month (or more) of vacation time a year, and a government that sees that the poor don’t have to sleep on the street or starve… or what the US (doesn’t) have? Do you want “nicer stuff” or less worry you’ll get randomly shot at a school or concert? Do you want safety to be defined as “I can afford to live behind the walls of a gated community”?
Me, too.