Resolved: antisemitism is not directly comparable to anti-black racism

[ZPG_Zealot]

@monstro

Jewish people celebrate their overcoming over slavery every year, and no one says a negative thing about it.

If black people were to do the same thing, people would shout at us to “get over it!” Because “that was a long time ago!” and “you’re wallowing in something that wasn’t even THAT bad” and “RACIST!”

You should visit Texas for Juneteenth (Juneteenth - Wikipedia). While there are a few hardcore racists of the sheet-wearing variety that have a problem with the holiday most people do not. Many schools, including my university, celebrate the holiday and a good time is had by all.

[tomndebb]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

It is a fabrication on your part.

Do not accuse other posters in Great Debates of lying.

= = =

Both of you back off and ratchet back the personal hostility.

[ /Moderating ]

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@tomndebb

Do not accuse other posters in Great Debates of lying.

Can you please advise as to the appropriate language to use when another poster repeatedly claims you say something you didn’t say?

[tomndebb]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Can you please advise as to the appropriate language to use when another poster repeatedly claims you say something you didn’t say?

Note that I singled out one specific sentence for censure. The rest of your post did not violate the rules. (Had you continued in that tone for a few more posts, I would have urged you to dial it back, but the specific rule you violated was accusing another poster of lying.)

[Chief_Pedant]

@iiandyiiii

In the USA, slavery is unique to black people (and possibly Native Americans). But every circumstance is different, and has different consequences. The historical plight of Jews in Europe was terrible but different than the historical plight of black people in America. The treatment of each group was terrible, but in different ways. It’s not at all surprising that the consequences are different.

What’s surprising is that the suffering of either group’s ancestry can be promulgated as a reason for underperformance of children from a currently privileged family of either group; the underperformance so profound that the children end up performing only on par with poverty stricken cohorts from groups whose ancestors did not suffer.

One group enslaved; one exterminated on a mass scale. One group discriminated against by appearance; another by religious practice. But when the parents succeed, apparently only one type of ancestral suffering is applicable as a reason for the failure of the children to perform.

Hunh.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Chief_Pedant

What’s surprising is that the suffering of either group’s ancestry can be promulgated as a reason for underperformance of children from a currently privileged family of either group; the underperformance so profound that the children end up performing only on par with poverty stricken cohorts from groups whose ancestors did not suffer.

One group enslaved; one exterminated on a mass scale. One group discriminated against by appearance; another by religious practice. But when the parents succeed, apparently only one type of ancestral suffering is applicable as a reason for the failure of the children to perform.

Hunh.

Hunh indeed. After all this time, after all these posts on the subject. You have faced specific evidence and specific mechanisms by which past oppression (let’s not sugarcoat it with “suffering,” it’s not about suffering, it’s about specific methods by which one group worked to dehumanize another) affects current performance. You either ignore it or you sneer at it.

It’s not the suffering that’s the problem. It’s the specific mechanisms of attack on the people that changed material aspects of culture.

Edit: and lest I let Pedant steer the conversation toward his comfort zone, it’s also not solely about the past. It’s about ongoing attacks on people of color, and the specific forms of these attacks.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Malthus

That’s pretty easy: under the Nazis, Jews = dead (often, worked to death in death camps, or simply gassed) while Blacks = considered lowest on the racial totem pole, discriminated against, and isolated by law (but not dead).

Thought I’d bump this because of an article I just ran across about the small population of black Germans and how they fared under the Nazis:

@the article

Not enough research has been done to unravel what happened to Germany’s black population. We know that most – alongside other black Europeans and many black soldiers – ended up in Nazi concentration camps and were murdered.

The article also talks about the systemic forced unanesthetized sterilization of black boys under Nazi rule and show a black inmate at Dachau immediately post-liberation.

Thought it was interesting.

[Malthus]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Thought I’d bump this because of an article I just ran across about the small population of black Germans and how they fared under the Nazis:
The article also talks about the systemic forced unanesthetized sterilization of black boys under Nazi rule and show a black inmate at Dachau immediately post-liberation.

Thought it was interesting.

It would appear that the actual experience of Black people under the Nazis varied widely. I am not sure whether or not it is accurate to say that “most” were killed: certainly, it was possible to be openly Black and live through the war in Germany without being arrested and murdered - not so for being openly Jewish.

Hans Massaquoi