A Tale of Two Persecutions & Discriminations Through History; Blacks and Jews

Two groups, blacks (I didn’t use the term “African-American” since this post applies to UK and other places) and Jews, have for centuries suffered egregious or at least invidious discrimination. African and Muslim tribes, some black and some Middle-Eastern were engaged in systematic enslavement and barter of other blacks, and in some cases whites as we know from the Barbary Coast Pirates. Some of those slavers sold their human chattel to European merchants, who apparently paid quite handsomely. Many of the slaveholders were barbarous. Men were split from female companions or wives, children from parents. In many cases they were beaten and dehumanized. In fact the U.S. Supreme Court (“SCOTUS”) in its infamous decision Dred Scott v. Sanford, 60 U.S. 393, 451, 452 (1857) stated in party:

Almost equally revolting was the post-slavery “separate but equal” decision in Plessy v. Ferguson, [163 U.S. 537, 550, 551:

Relying on Plessy, Oklahoma admitted a student named McLaurin to a graduate school. Pursuant to a requirement of state law that the instruction of Negroes in institutions of higher education be “upon a segregated basis,” however, he was assigned to a seat in the classroom in a row specified for Negro students, was assigned to a special table in the library, and, although permitted to eat in the cafeteria at the same time as other students, was assigned to a special table there. The SCOTUS held that this treatment violated his right to equal treatment, and this and other decisions paved the way to the overturning of Plessy. See McLaurin v. Oklahoma, 339 U.S. 637 (1950).

While not as dramatic discrimination against black people has undoubtedly continued. And this is not limited to the U.S. Many countries such as Japan don’t allow blacks to immigrate at all. And even in Africa there is discrimination based on religion and other factors, many arbitrary. The destruction and demoralization of families through slavery in the U.S. has, no doubt, severely hurt the black family and continues to reduce their economic and social opportunities despite the erasure of legal barriers. Black communities are plagued by high dropout and crime rates, illegitimacy and other ills. There is now a focus on eliminating statues that seem to celebrate past racism.

The Jewish people have, for millenniums suffered severe and often lethal persecution. Throughout Christian Europe and even during the “Golden Age” in Moorish Spain there were periodic riots in which many Jews died and more were uprooted. In modern Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Belorussia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Moldova Jews were segregated in ghettos and a large “Pale of Settlement.” Conditions here were popularized in Fiddler on the Roof. Even upon emigration of many of them to the U.S. conditions were far from perfect. Many died in industrial horrors such as the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. There were official and unofficial restrictions such as quota systems limiting their attendance at prestigious universities.

Yet the Jews are usually derided for having too much influence, too much affluence and indeed for dominating policy at local, state and Federal levels. While there is divorce in Jewish families, the rates are low enough that even children of broken homes have role models in their peers.The children are rarely truants, and violence (except in Hasidic sects which is a different topic altogether) is rare. Police are not afraid to go into Jewish areas, and there is rarely a struggle between Jewish communities and police authorities.

The victimization of Jews has been among the most systematic of any group. I think Jews and blacks need to pull together again, as Martin Luther King eloquently urged. And I think minority leaders need to deal with their own community problems and focus less on inanimate symbols such as statues and problems of the past such as the history of slavery and racism.

Is there a debate, here?

Speaking in my official capacity as a Jew, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time; we can deal with community problems without losing a step on removing statues. Nazis don’t want us to do either; by an odd coincidence, I’d like for us to do both. We choose to go to the moon and do the other things: something something easy, something something hard.

If you’re still pissed off about the whole confederate statue thing, you certainly picked a roundabout way to express it. But I suspect that’s not what you’re really on about.

Actually, black folks should just shut up about racism and pull themselves up by their bootstraps like the Jews did (at least until certain people tried to systematically wipe them out), is that about right?

Not true.

What about if (and I’m just asking questions here) by far the biggest problem facing their community is that it exists within and subordinate to an overall racist system that directly impacts every aspect of life internal to their community but they have no effective power in? What, hypothetically, then?

Then do what Jewish people have historically done - value education, maintain strong family structures, and so forth.

Of course, your hypothetical doesn’t apply anywhere in the US, which appears to be the focus of the OP, but in the real world, it’s the way that Jewish people and Asians overcame (for the most part ) discrimination and persecution.

Regards,
Shodan

I’m not sure to which “hypothetical” you are referring. What is wrong with other people doing what the Jews doe regarding education, family structures, etc.? More important whould we subsidize the drug use, truancy and pregnancies of other cultures or call it what is is, social pathology?

Yeah - all they have to do is maintain strong family structures! And so forth! Simple!

Not all persecutions are created equal.

It may be a semantics discussion, but I think it’s entirely reasonable to assert that some communities in the US are suffering under a racist system that affects, in some way, pretty much every aspect of their lives.

As for comparing Jewish and Asian communities to black communities, I don’t think it’s comparable – the only group in America that’s faced the same level of historical oppression and discrimination for such a long period of time is Native Americans. And I don’t think it’s just coincidence that these two groups which were treated by far the worst through American history are statistically at the bottom of so many social, educational, and economic measures.

MrDibble’s hypothetical, where groups exist in an overall racist system that directly impacts every aspect of life internal to their community but they have no effective power in.

Nothing’s wrong with it. It’s something that they have power over, that would help resolve their situation, as was/is the case with Jewish people and Asians, especially Chinese immigrants. But it’s something they have to do, rather than the government doing it for them, and it’s harder than blaming society.

Chinese immigrants have physical identifiers of race, as blacks do. They faced institutional and societal discrimination, as blacks did. They spoke a different set of languages, as blacks did not. They suffered assaults on their family structures as blacks did (cite). Yet Asian average incomes are higher than for any other racial group. They have the lowest rate of illegitimate births in the US.

Cite.

Cite.

Regards,
Shodan

Ha, ha, ha! Nice one, Shodan
… oh, wait, you’re serious?

As an Asian, the idea that we have “overcome” discrimination and persecution is laughable. For one thing, we appear to exist solely as a counter-example to claims of institutional racism, rather than being actual people.

This argument is tired and fallacious.

Maybe these groups are at the bottom since they don’t organize their family lives and child upbringing in ways that work in 20th or 21st Century America.

So they should do nothing to actually address the discriminatory, racist issues inherent in their society that directly affect them negatively? They should just strive to succeed despite them? If so, why should they have to when others don’t have to strive against such things, and are in fact aided by it directly or indirectly?

I know for whatever reason you don’t think the described hypothetical is real per the snipped part of your quote, but we might as keep the hypothetical going.

Yeah, but there are parts of Brighton Beach they would rather stay out of. You should read Rich Cohen’s book Tough Jews. The Jewish community in America and else where has had problems with criminals and organized crime just like any other group of people.

What is your motivation behind this advice?

In my experience, this advice is often accompanied by an implicit push for this to be the ONLY thing minorities do as opposed to doing that AND pushing back against racist societal structures that are often much more foundational issues that family structure. The self-serving nature of this advice also rings hollow when spoken to many members of the minority groups who do “organize their family lives and child upbringing in ways that work in 20th or 21st Century America” and are still “at the bottom.”

What is fallacious, that Asians have faced discrimination and persecution or that they have overcome it?

They can work on those issues too - it isn’t either/or.

Yes, people should strive to succeed.

Because people who don’t strive to succeed generally don’t.

Besides, you’re missing the point. Jews and Asians and some other groups were discriminated against. They are successful nonetheless, and not because they said “I shouldn’t have to”.

If a group expects society to fix their problems for them, they are going to be waiting a while. Whereas a group that maintains a stable family structure and pushes their children to excel in school, often finds that the problems are considerably less limiting. Especially in the 21st century.

Regards,
Shodan

So you’re that’s it’s entirely coincidental that the two groups that were treated, by far, the worst in American history, happen to be at the bottom of so many statistical indicators for economic, social, and educational well-being?