No, I said that I would like the name to no longer be a tool for people like Jerry Falwell to use against companies like Target. And right now he can claim, truthfully, that the US government endorses, in some small way, his religion. I would like him, and people like him, not to be able to make that claim.
At least this is a better attempt than Debaser’s at making the same point.
But I don’t see Janus worshippers trying to claim that January is a religious month, threatening to boycott stores like Target because they don’t wish people Happy January, or whining incessantly about how the pc police won’t let them put two-faced Janus statues inside City Hall. When that starts happening? Then I’ll be annoyed.
This argument is very similar to the one about same sex marriage. The religious lay claim to “marriage” though the institution has its roots in dozens of different cultures. The the religious say they get to define the word one specific way because they need to for their religion, oh and the government should endorse that because there are so many of us.
And just like with marriage, I don’t care what it’s called. I’m going to call it marriage. I’m going to call it Christmas. The government can call Christmas Shmooday and marriage Irving for all I care.
Unlike marriage, however, I don’t think this is worth trying to get changed. I won’t be doing any Shmooday marches. I won’t vote for the pro-Shmoo candidate. And, frankly, it isn’t the atheists who are pissed off about the term “Christmas” being associated with consumerism and Santa Claus.
Try not to choke on all that straw.
I’m Jewish. I don’t celebrate Christmas, and in fact go out of my way to avoid things Christmasy, but a day off is a thing of joy, no matter why. If they gave me a paid day off for “Anne Neville Is A Big Fat Stupid Ugly Bitch Day”, I’d take it, and like it.
If he didn’t have Christmas to use against companies like Target, he’d find something else. And, much as my hatred of Jerry Falwell and his ilk burns with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns, I’m not sure I’m willing to give up a paid day off to stick it to them.
If f I’m starting off the day having to respond to the likes of you, it’s not going to be a good day. Oh well…
If you must know, I just read this thread for the first time. In reading it I had a question and asked it. Why do you have a problem with that?
Here’s another question sparked by the content of the thread, your postiings specifically: I see you have over 5,000 posts now, how many more will we have to tolerate/ignore before you contribute to an actual discussion? Maybe we should have a pool. I pick Post #34,948, so I’ll look forward to collecting in the early spring.
All of them.
That is, assuming you actual read the thread and didn’t see how what I quoted answered your prior question.
I’ve no doubt that some would love the chance to install a whole new calendar on miltantly secular and rationalistic lines. We could rename the months for the weather conditions, and replace all those annoying religious holidays that the ignorant superstitious masses follow with purely secular ones. It’s such an original idea.
You shouldn’t have to. Christians have no special claim on the day of December 25th. It simply isn’t a religious holiday to many people, including me.
As a Jew, what would you think if the US government changed the name of the federal holiday from Christmas to, say, Winter Festival? Would it impact Jews?
I personally have no problem calling Christmas what it is. It is a secular AND religious holiday, multiple religions at that. Yes, the original name was changed to something Christian, but the holiday has lost all religious meaning anyways.
I don’t feel that there are as many religious people as they say they are. I think the actual percentage is much, much lower . . . around 2% of the country. Why do you ask? You gotta practice what you preach and until you can take a strong look at yourself and say that you live your entire existence by the teachings of Jesus and the bible, you can’t claim you’re truly religious. You may disagree with me on this, but that’s how I feel.
It wouldn’t make sense to say I’m a student, yet I don’t go to school or study. Why call yourself a Christian if you’re not giving up all your worldly possessions to give to the needy (amongst the many other facets, but this is the big one if you’re a Christian)? Do you think it’s Christian to assault people in the mall for an Xbox? Why isn’t that money going to the hungry or paying for some stranger’s medical bills?
This whole whoo-haa from the right about “libruls are ATTACKING Christmas” is just bullshit. They need to lay down the weed for a while, it’s making them paranoid. No one is attacking anything. There will always be fringe on either side who say and do some crazy things. I would venture to guess a good majority of this board is atheist/agnostic and no one wants to get rid of the holiday.
This whole changing names things bothers me especially for the fact that Christians cried when gays wanted to get married. Saying things such as “‘marriage’ is a Christian tradition”. Well, like Christmas, it is not religious in the governmental definition. Fine, you want “marriage” to be your term? Then we’ll propose it gets changed on the federal level and if you do get “married” in a church or some religious ceremony, you need to ALSO have a civil union witnessed by the state. How come the disparity between “marriage” and “christmas” all of a sudden? You want a word, you don’t want the word. Oh, it’s just boys kissing and adopting kids is the problem and will soil you’re precious word! Guess what? Gays celebrate Christmas too.
And on preview, I see jsgoddess beat me to the punch.
I am very, very much atheist and I have no problem with Christmas as I am not stupid to think there’s any religious meaning to it any longer. When I see more than the occaisional Christian acting in a Christianly way, maybe I’ll change my stance. But I doubt it, I haven’t seen a Christian in many years. I have seen a lot of hypocrites though. Practice what you preach.
I don’t care what they call it, as long as I get the day off.
I would worry a bit about Jews being blamed by some people for changing the name.
I think changing the name of Christmas to Winter Festival or whatever would upset some people, cost a lot of money, and have no real benefit for those of us who don’t celebrate Christmas.
WHOOSH!!!
But there is a similarity between “The name Christmas is religious in nature should be banned” and “T looks like a cross and should be banned.”
The second statement is slightly more silly and ridiculous, but only in degree.
Nobody said the word Christmas should be “banned.” I suggested that it should be changed only in official state language regarding the holiday. Claiming that anyone wants to “ban the name” is the same kind of alarmist, overheated “sky is falling” demagoguery which is constantly espoused by the religious right when they say things like “kids aren’t allowed to pray in school” or “Kerry wants to ban the Bible.” It’s a complete misrepresentation of the issues.
:sigh:
We’ve already gone over this.
It’s a lot easier to type “Christmas should be banned” than it is to type “Christmas should be banned in official state language”. It’s clear that we both know this. Why cover this ground again?
I disagree. The objection to Christmas might not be reasonable, but it’s at least based on fact. The fact is that the name is religious. I haven’t heard anyone wanting to ban it, though.
The objection to the T would definitely not be reasonable since the T is not religious and only sometimes does it even resemble a cross. If you tell someone they will come to a T in the road, they don’t think of a cross at all.
It’s rather like someone claiming that a slippery slope could lead to banning the word “niggardly” if we banned the word “nigger.” Just because someone ignorant could find a superficial similarity between the two words doesn’t mean that getting rid of one means getting rid of the other. Yes, some buffoon did once misunderstand the word, but that is an indictment of the buffoon, not of disusing the word “nigger.”
(Though I will grant that if we had a letter in English that looked exactly like a swastika, there may have been some attempt to change it. I think I’ve read that even in India that particular symbol occasionally comes under fire. I do not have a cite.)
Mainly because there seem to be a lot of misunderstandings so it’s best to be very clear. We’ve all heard the Falwells of the world claim that if teachers aren’t leading prayers that means that “prayer is banned in schools!” And already similar people claim that “We’re not even allowed to say Christmas!” So, in general, even in a debate amongst more rational people, I’d prefer if people didn’t use what could be misleading shorthand.
Fair enough. I didn’t mean for the two to be equivilent. Obviously the T is a deliberately silly example. However, I do think that the silliness of banning the word “Christmas”* can be fairly poked fun at by such comparisons.
(*DISCLAIMER: By “banning the word Christmas” I mean to say “banning the word Christmas from all state documents and statements, not those by private individuals.”)
Well, that’s certainly not true in the bible belt:
How do I get to the Wal-Mart?
“Easy. You take a left on Main St. Head all the way down until you pass the country store. Then you hit a T intersection, you know, just like a cross that Jesus carried on the day he died for your sins. Well, you take a right at that and it’s just up ahead on the left. You can’t miss it.”
Relgious type debates always bring out the best in folks!
I agree with DtC in theory on this one. Nothing is lost by keeping the day a Federal Holiday and changing the name to something else. Call it "Religon Day’. At least that way its not seen to be supporting Christ, over say…Budda. My church would still call it Christmas, as would millions of others, as would millions of retail stores.
On the other hand, I see no endorsement of christianity by the government by keeping the name Christmas either. Anymore than I see Thanksgiving as government support of killing Indians. They are just days that mark important historical events for Americans.
But I think the argument that this nation was founded by christian values, so Christmas is a holiday…kinda silly. Christmas didnt even become a federal holiday until like 1870. If it was so important to our “christian” value society, wouldnt it have been done sooner?
I’ll second it. I think we could come up with some really wicked-awesome cards.
“Getcher ANIABFSUB cards here!”
-Joemark
Ha!
Thanks for the laugh. Er, if you aren’t joking, don’t burst my bubble, I beg.