Should the Federal government be in the business of declaring the holy day of one religion a public holiday? Does that violate the first amendment?
Though I am an atheist I don’t have a big problem with minor symbolic acts like a Christmas holiday especially if they have a long historical tradition. I don’t much mind with “In God we trust” either. But I wondered what the SOCAS purists had to say about this.
IANAL but I’d think from a purist perspective, it does violate the First Amendment. It is a law that recognizes an important day in a particular religion and rewards the entire country irrespective of the individual beliefs within the population with a holiday ostensibly to celebrate said religious event.
But, the tradition of Christmas has clearly transcended religion much as the “In God We Trust” on currency, which is why both issues are not worth seriously fighting.
I think Xmas should not be a federal holiday and that “In God we trust” should be taken off the currency.
There is a practical effect that argues against Christmas: they have the effect of a tax break for Christian businesses and employees.
If stores are generally closed on a Christian holiday, then Christian owned businesses and employees lose nothing (that no one else is losing). If a Muslim/Hindu/Jewish businessman closes shop on a M/H/J holiday, then they’re closed while all their competitors are open, so they’re effectively losing business for observing their religious holiday. Likewise, a M/H/J employee who takes the day off uses a vacation day, while a Christian who takes Christmas off is just taking advantage of a free holiday.
Well the practical effects may cut both ways. The non-Christian businesses could stay open on Christmas and maybe make more money because their competitors are closed. The non-Christian employees may be able to work over-time on Christmas and make good money.
What I am more interested is the legal reasoning which allows for the constutionality of the Christmas public holiday. I am guessing that the SCOTUS wouldn’t declare the Christmas holiday unconstitutional if the ACLU brought up such a case. Is there any legal reasoning behind this or is it just a matter of tradition?
The tradition of holiday observances is a secular matter, although some holidays have religious roots, such as the Feast of Mithras, which is celebrated today. It also is the season of Solstice, and for sun god purists, the upcoming Perihelion.
Who cares? Christmas shopping, Santa Claus, and presents for everyone are not a religious celebration. It’s a feast of conspicuous consumption, whereby we demonstrate that our tribe has wealth enough to throw a party in the dead of winter. Observing your religious practices is a private matter, and if it conflicts with the conduct of business, well, you make a sacrifice for your faith.
I am a Christian, and Christmas is a very special day for me, for entirely religious reasons. Because of that, I always go to work on that day, since my work is my greatest expression of living my faith. My job doesn’t stop on holidays. I work for the state and holidays are just annual leave accrual days.
Separate your religion from the state by refusing to participate in state religion. School prayer, public prayer in courts and public meetings are state religion. Don’t participate. If you have no religion, and believe in no god, what possible reason is there to refuse to take a day off because a lot of folks do celebrate something vaguely religious on a particular day. It’s not like you can’t go out to a bar that day, or anything.
Stay open on Easter, Christmas, and St. Swizzen’s day. Close up for Walpurgis Natcht, and The Conjunction of Venus, if you feel like it. There are no laws forbidding it. The government has the holiday habits of long standing, including Lee-Jackson-King day, here in Virginia. I figure that one even makes the guys who it is named after uncomfortable. Honor George Washington, by buying a lot of discounted out of date merchandise. I am sure it makes him proud. It certainly won’t make you a Washingtarian.
Holidays are mostly excuses to increase commerce. So, either do it, or don’t. If you feed at the public trough, and you object to the timing of Christmas holidays, ask your boss if you can come in and work, as an expression of your disgust.
Tris.
That effect mitigates the practical effect we’re discussing, but doesn’t eliminate it, since few people go shopping on Christmas; at best, they pick up some incremental traffic.
I mentioned this because it was an actual ruling by a court; unfortunately, I have no clue where to find a cite.
, “since few people go shopping on Christmas; at best, they pick up some incremental traffic.”
True but if there are very few non-Christians they each get a big share of the smaller Christmas traffic so the overall effect is unclear.
Suppose there is one non-Christian business and 9 Christian businesses in a particular area with each having a 10% share. On its holiday the non-Christian business loses its 10% share for that day. On Christmas suppose that traffic is only 10% of its normal. However the non-Christian business will gain all that 10% which will balance what it lost earlier. If traffic is bigger than 10% of the average it might even get a net advantage. It all depends on the type of business and the ratio of non-Christians to Christian businesses in that area.
I am a non-Christian, and a regular patron of ethnic restaurants on Dec. 25th. Generally, we all go out for Chinese food, but tomorrow we’re going to the Indian restaurant instead.
I don’t know anybody who “goes shopping” on Dec 25th, but I know tons of folks who don’t have a family celebration but go out to dinner anyway. These restaurants are usually pretty crowded…
Back to the OP: of course Christmas shouldn’t be a federal holiday, but you’d have a whale of a time taking it away. It’s a tradition by now, and hardly anybody would be willing to show up for work in any case. AFAIK, the holiday has been sufficiently “secularized” to avoid the SOCAS rulings, per the Supreme Court. (sorry, no cite, but I recall reading that this was the dodge)
I’ll work on finding a cite.
I agree with ** Theobroma. ** We’ve reached a point where Christmas is more of a secular holiday than a religious one. (Whereas, for example, Easter is still, despite the Bunny and the chocolate, a holiday with serious religious overtones.) At this point, Christmas is so engrained in our culture that changing it would be disruptive.
It’s becoming a bit of a tradition with hubby and me. A few years ago, we were selling one house and buying another due to a job move. We were between homes over the holidays, staying with relatives. The atmosphere became a bit hectic, so we went out to the few stores open on Christmas day, browsed, watched the frantic people, and bought a few little gifts for each other. It was fun, and so we do the same every year.
You know, I never thought of it this way, but it makes a lot of sense, sociologically. Where did you come by this theory?
I’ll second the motion. In contrast with Christmas, the motto is not a tradition in the strictest sense, but try telling that to the Commander in Chief. Simply put, it was created in the '50s to seperate us from those Godless heathens, the Communists, and is blantantly of a religious nature. But that’s another thread (and undoubtedly another dead horse.)
Not if you live in Gold Coast, Australia:
All licensees are reminded that they must stop trading to the general public at midnight on Christmas eve (hotel and motel residents may continued to be served in their rooms or other approved areas).
And IIRC, in Ohio it’s illegal to serve alcohol on Sundays.
So the government needs an excuse to declare a day of the year a holiday? What if they just say “December 25 is a national holiday. Period. Stop. End of Story.” Then you can do whatever you want to do that day. You can celebrate Christmas or you can scratch your balls all day. Or you can celebrate to Summer solstice if you are so inclined.
Theobroma said:
Well, I would – if anything were open. Hell, I had to run out last night after most stores were closed because we just realized that we were out of pull-ups! While I was there (ended up at Kmart, 'cus they were still open), I did some other shopping. So Kmart got some business that would have belonged to other stores simply for being open later on Christmas Eve (believe me, I wasn’t the only one there).
That said, I don’t really think it has much to do with the concept of Christmas as a federal holiday. Stores could be open if they wanted to be. It’s up to them. But as a government employee, I have to stay home today, but if I want to take another day off that might be special to me, I have to use my own vacation time to do so. Therein lies the problem to me – it is governmental recognition of a specific religious holiday (and please, nobody give me any of the crap about CHRISTmas becoming secular). Should it be recognized? No. Do I think it will ever change? Also no. Is it the biggest church/state separation problem in this country? Again no. So when we finally manage to stop idiots from posting the 10 Commandments in schools or courthouses, convince them to stop pushing prayer in school or creationism, etc., then I’ll focus more energy on getting Christmas unrecognized as a government holiday. 
What if they just say “December 25 is a national holiday. Period. Stop. End of Story.”
If they did that (to get around SOCAS) it would just as clear a case of establishing christmas as a federal holiday (thus favoring one religion over others) as if they said “Christmas is a national holiday.” December 25 is christmas. There is no other reason for making that day out of the other 365 a national holiday. It’s a clear pretext for establishing christmas, nothing more. Now, we can argue over whether or not christmas really is december 25, but it’s widely accepted that it is (and that debate would be one for another thread), so let’s not even go there.
Until Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana and the month of Ramadan (the whole month would be impracticable, but at least a symbolic day or two) are made national holidays, christmas shouldn’t be one either. This is not a country where the majority always rules. There are plenty of other countries which are - if you want to live in one of them let me know and i’ll send you a list so you can pick where you want to move to.
There are no liquor stores open on Sunday in Ohio. (I don’t know whether that is law or custom–the watered liquor that Ohio permits to be sold in supermarkets may be sold after 1:00 p.m. Sunday, the same as beer and wine.) However, bars and restaurants serve liquor with abandon seven days a week.
Well, gee, just because I don’t know anybody who goes shopping on Dec 25th, that doesn’t mean nobody does it. Naturally, lots of people might, if the stores were open. My point (did I have one?) was that any restaurants that were open enjoyed increased business, and stores would too. But most Americans don’t want to work on Christmas (for religious or family reasons) so the stores close. I said that the Supreme Court considered Christmas secular, not that I did.
Bottom line–A move to eliminate the federal Christmas holiday would be hugely unpopular, and would accomplish very little. Even though it is a federally sponsored [paid day off] religious holiday, the gummint at least does not require the slightest religious observance, so I am inclined to let it go.
I get confused between the threads that say Christmas is secular and those that say Christmas is religious. Which one is this?
I don’t think different threads say it, but different people might. However, if you’re looking for a hint, allow me to quote a parenthetical remark from my message a few up from yours:
Tell it to Bryan.
How is it “crap”, David that Christmas is becoming seularized? The process has been underway for over a century–since the introduction of Santa Claus pretty much. The fact that it is increasingly referred to generically as “holiday” shows that this process continues. Of course, Western culture has held celebrations on or about the winter solstice since the beginning of time, and its popularity and many of its traditions transcend Christianity. Observing the birth of Jesus was added later, and although ascendant for many years (even as Protestants at times rejected the whole holiday as insufficiently religious) that aspect has become marginalized. It might be compared to a body onto which an extra limb has been grafted and which at last is slowly starting to reject it. The name CHRISTmas is a sticking point, but then again, you can’t change the nature of something by changing its label, but you can change the meaning of words.
A holiday is complex in that each individual can emphasize whatever meaning he chooses and engage in whatever activities he chooses. If for you Christmas is all about getting presents, then that’s what it’s about. That’s all it ever was for me. If you prefer to spend the day sulking, then it’s “Sulk Day”; you wouldn’t want to have to go to work, because that would ruin a good sulk.
There’s some perfectly good rationale for regarding Christmas/Solstice/Yuletide/Holiday as ultimately secular, why grasp for much flimsier rationale for the sake of ruining it? Let’s have a little pragmatism.