Resolved: Ilhan Omar has not expressed antisemitism

Nobody in this thread is saying otherwise.

I’m giving her lots of benefit of the doubt, in large part for that reason. I’ve said repeatedly in this thread that I’m quite ready to believe that she spoke in ignorance of how the statement would sound to American Jews; or for that matter to American anti-Semites.

If what you mean to say is that Republicans in Congress aren’t giving her any benefit of the doubt because she’s a Muslim immigrant from Somalia, I strongly suspect that you’re correct; though it probably also has something to do with her being a woman, and something to do with her being a liberal Democrat.

What you are absolutely refusing to see is that her actual words do have current and historical connotations, whether or not she intended those connotations.

I don’t think I can say any of this more clearly. I wish you’d go re-read my actual posts, and respond to them instead of to the Republicans in Congress, who as far as I know aren’t posting in this thread and aren’t listening to either of us.

I do not know how many times it makes any sense to say this. I’m concluding that you can’t hear it. Intentions are not the only issue. Effect is also an issue. That she thought she wasn’t talking about anti-Semitism does not change the fact that she sounded as if she were.

I think a lot of Jews are aware that some of the conservative support of Israel (no, I’m not saying all of it) comes not from any love of or respect for Jews, or any value of Israel as an ally, but from the fact that the Book of Revelations assumes the existence of Israel. Some of them think that the existence of Israel is a necessary pre-requisite for their Second Coming. Once their Jesus shows up again, they expect all the Jews to either convert to Christianity immediately or, quite literally, go to hell.

This. Exactly.

ETA: Which is the rest of the reason why I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt.

This. Plus the fact that, if the entire Muslim religion and all its adherents simply ceased to exist in a Rod-Serling-esque scenario, most rightwingers would go right back to denying Jews memberships in their country clubs and burning wooden Stars of Davids on their lawns. Jews are only accepted amongst such people because there’s a scarier bunch of boogeymen on the loose.

But AIPAC, to which she was referring, is about the money as well as the votes.

According to former Representative Brian Baird (D-Washington), “Any member of Congress knows that AIPAC is associated indirectly with significant amounts of campaign spending if you’re with them, and significant amounts against you if you’re not with them.” “AIPAC-connected money” amounted to about $200,000 in each of his campaigns for office — “and that’s two hundred thousand going your way, versus the other way: a four-hundred-thousand-dollar swing.”[43] AIPAC-directed campaign contributions—as with many interest groups—came with considerable “tactical input”. AIPAC staffers told Baird and other lawmakers, “No, we don’t say it that way, we say it this way.” Baird complained, “There’s a whole complex semantic code you learn. … After a while, you find yourself saying and repeating it as if it were fact.”[7]

…[edited to add] This was unintentionally a reply to @CaptMurdock . Was supposed to hit reply to the thread, apologies for tagging you in.

Ilhan Omar’s public support for the Jewish people over the years:

I personally have no reason to doubt any of the statements Omar has made. It seems fairly unequivocal to me.

Yes, I concur. Nothing overtly antisemitic. Some, let us say “unfortunate” comments, that can be read as anti-Semitic.

I concur on this also.

There is room to criticize her for some of her comments, but not to condemn her.

Has AIPAC donated $ to her opponents? I mean, if they had, that is pretty condemning.

I had most of this post as a draft and most of this has been covered by other posters since, but whatever.

Respectfully, no. I’m not digging through that garbage for you (or anybody). It’s freely available online. Maybe disable your tracking cookies before you start searching.

I’m not going to get into a game of “how could this have been worded differently” with you. There are a number of ancient and well-worn stereotypes about Jewish people - that they secretly control the world, that they secretly control the world’s money, that they are incapable of loyalty to anybody but themselves, and so on.

As with in this case, sometimes you should be more careful about the language you use in certain contexts.

If American Jews are sensitive to the conflation of “Israel” and “Jew” it’s because that’s one of the ways antisemitism is directed at us, from both liberals and conservatives.

Is Ilhan Omar getting more heat because of who she is? Absolutely. Is it a gross double standard? Undoubtedly. Is she blameless? Absolutely not, by her own admission. It can be two things.

Wait, what? When did she say anything that could even be interpreted to mean that she was referring to Jewish bankers controlling the money?

I believe that’s an inference people made when she suggested that the support for Israel was based around money.

Of course she was just referring to how powerful their lobbyists are, which is factual. And that power is through money, as all lobbyist power is.

Calling her antisemitic over her comments is a real snowflake moment.

This is true. To be fair, though, the problem is heavily exacerbated by specific Israeli political leaders who deploy exactly the same conflation for their own interested purposes. For decades they have been exhorting non-Israeli Jews to support Israeli policies unquestioningly, on the grounds that whatever Israel does is done for the sake of all Jews, that the Israeli state is the natural home of the Jewish people and the Jewish people are the natural constituents of the Israeli state, irrespective of official legal nationality.

They can’t go on endlessly demanding that Jews in general should see no daylight between themselves and Israel, and then turn around and claim that it’s automatically antisemitic for non-Jews to believe the rhetoric that they themselves have been spouting.

They can’t, can they? Just watch 'em!

Calling Jews “snowflakes” over what we feel is antisemitism is a truly clueless position to be in. Do you tell people who are Black to just suck it up over the whole police violence thing?

You are making my point by equating a factual comment that she made with the systematic murder of Black people.

Calling her antisemitic and saying that she said something that sounded antisemitic are two drastically different things.

Which Omar herself apparently understood just fine.

…But they’re not. They can be different, but is not saying antisemitic things a form of antisemitism? (That’s a rhetorical question, of course it is.)

No, my comment is about you referring to Jews upset by what we feel is antisemitic as snowflakes. This has nothing to do with Omar.

This is 100% in context with Omar’s statement. Your insistence that this has “nothing to do with Omar” is incorrect. Please don’t take my words out of context. Go read what I said again.

Your words were not taken out of context. It was a direct quote “Calling her antisemitic over her comments is a real snowflake moment.”

What gives you the right to tell me what impact her words have on me and call me a snowflake? Have you tried being Jewish in the 21st century? Maybe you should choose a better word next time.

So you are calling her antisemitic? Seriously, that’s what this discussion is. That’s what my comment was. Do you think she’s an antisemite? If not, then my comment has nothing to do with you.

Let’s have some clarification before this discussion gets even further off-track.

Antisemitism is real. It’s horrific and disgusting. Atrocities have been committed in its name, some of the worst large-scale crimes against humanity we’ve ever seen. And it’s on the rise, and in the US it is especially becoming popular among the alt-right. It’s nothing to take lightly. People are being killed today over it, synagogues and other places have been targets.

However, given the full context of everything in this thread, given Ilhan Omar’s follow-up to her statement, given everything she has expressed to and about the Jewish people as evidenced in this thread, if someone still insists that she’s an antisemite, I can only see that a person is seeking to be offended by her. The term snowflake in this context is a person who is easily offended. It has nothing to do with what Jewish people face regularly. It is specifically in the context of what is being discussed in this thread.

Again, trying to make a point by saying that a person has as much right to call her antisemitic as people who are upset over police violence against Black people is simply awful.

Please take your own advice.

This makes no sense. My objection is over you using the term snowflake. I’m done.