any more than disagreeing with some of the policies of the US government make me anti-American? Why? Why not?
I’m posting this question in the Pit not because I’m in an argumentative mood but because, if past observations were accurate, it’ll end up here anyway. (bewildered ) However, I respect the views of most of the people here and would like to know, because I know some people see linkage but I don’t.
Hardly. You may disagree with the policies of the government without denigrating people of the Jewish faith. You can disagree with precepts of the Jewish faith itself without harboring any ill will towards Jews.
Disagreeing with an ideology is not the same as hating its practioners.
I’m sorry for sounding so clueless on this (as if that were any different from any other topic ), but it seems that (no links, of course, because I’m too lazy to look them up ), whenever somebody complains about a particular policy of the Israeli governmenthe gets jumped on for anti-Semitism. I’m somewhat sensitive to that because I’m a good, moderate-to-liberal boy and don’t see the linkage, although I got over the people making the US policy/anti-American linkage thirty years ago.
okay, here’s an example: A couple weeks ago there was a thread in which a person quoted an Israeli man whose views did not match those of the Israeli government and he got dumped on heavily before anybody even had a chance to look into what he was saying or could determine why he was saying it. Dumping on him after the facts were in would be fine, but deliberation seems to go out the window sometimes.
Um, drop? Did you even read the site that balthazar had linked to? From said site:
It goes on to explain how, in Jewish society, it is considered a sin to kill a fellow Jew, but killing anyone else is not a crime. And how Judaism covers this up by claiming that anyone who states such is ‘anti-semitic’.
Sorry, but sometimes a spade is, in fact, a spade. And anti-semitic ravings are anti-semitic ravings.
No apologies for that site, as it is populated by major nutcases, but did people go overboard attacking Baltazar before we could even determine whether he held any of the attitudes promulgated by that site? If we are in the fight against ignorance we should answer this guy’s questions without assuming he is a “stupid tool,” “ignorant turd,” and “moron,” all used by Dopers I respect before we could determine just where Baltazar was coming from. People do come here seeking enlightenment after a lifetime in the dark.
But that was the only example I could find quickly while also working.
The other problem with what Baltazzar said was that he wasn’t saying, “Can you believe how evil the Israeli government is?” He was saying, “Can you believe how evil the Jews are?”
Did we know that right away? It might surprise people from a more cosmopolitan area, but there are people who have never met a Jew in their lives. All they know is what they’ve been told. It would be nice if we were to be more open and welcoming, at least until we know the person’s agenda. Even people who think like him can still be encouraged toward a more open feeling. Jumping on him immediately, without making any effort to understand his position, only reinforces his thinking.
But, back to the OP. I hold to the opinion that the Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians has been uniformly shameful and reminiscent of attitudes and practices that preceded the Holocaust.
Having been involved with Canadian-Palestinian solidarity work for over two decades I would like to make the following observations:
The term “anti-semitic” is used much the same way as “Red” or “Commie” was during the McCarthy era in the United States. There were “Reds” and “Commies”, and there are “anti-semites”, however, the people throwing the term around are often more interested in the effect they generate than in being accurate.
You will also hear the term “self-hating Jew” thrown around… best I can understand it applies to anyone of Jewish roots who opposes the political position (vis a vis Israel) of the one throwing the term around.
Once the term “anti-semitic” gets thrown into the fray, it is almost impossible to get back on a rational track. An example: in GD there is a thread about whether or not Zionism is racism. Now, were I to enter that particular argument by pointing out that the “Law of Return” is an essentially racist law, I would in all likelihood be accused of being anti-semitic. Even if I went to great length to point out that what is offensive about the law of return is also common to the immigration laws of many European countries (Germany being the best example: the children of the so-called guest workers cannot become citizens, but 7th and 8th generation descendants of the Volga Germans have the automatic right to German citizenship) it is the accusation of anti-semitism that is going to be the basis of what follows rather than the contention that a racist immigration policy is a racist immigration policy.
and finally (my fave):
Overtly anti-semitic remarks by Christian fundamentalist fanatics are frequently allowed to go unchallenged on the basis that they are often rabid supporters of military aid to Israel (not because of some deep, abiding love for the Jewish people, but because they are hoping to hasten Armageddon).
Yep, bagkitty, that’s right. Any criticism of Israeli policy, the law of return or anything else like that will get you labeled anti-semetic, and people never stand up to actual anti-semetic comments made by Christian fundimentalists. :rollseyes:
Here’s the thing, drop. I’ve put up with thr sort of crap that Baltazzar was spouting all my life and, as these things go, I’ve gotten off pretty lightly.
I’m tired of trying to win over bigots. I admit I don’t have a good attitude about this. In the long run, yours is certainly the better method.
But…
Every time I defend statements like “You use blood to make Matzo with, right?” (the “Christian baby’s Blood” phrase seems to have been dropped in recent years), it enrages me (I know it’s a cliche, but I’ve actually had that said to me).
Every time I argue with “Yeah, but you guys (Jews) control all the money…” it infuriates me.
Every time I try to educate following “Hey, ‘Jew him down’ isn’t a bad phrase. It means you guys are good businessmen. Right?” I see red. (One of my best friends still can’t/won’t understand why this phrase pisses me off so much, but out of deference to our friendship has stopped saying it)
My position isn’t really rational, but if I calmly debunk or debate it feels like I’m trying to defend myself from something that doesn’t need defense.
And now, when I hear those coded anti-Semitic phrases, I find myself generally mocking or yelling at, or insulting the person and the argument. Calm logic might win me allies, but then again, it might sound like I’m on the defensive. As little as this makes sense, I feel like I’m lending creedence to these positions by giving them the diginity of rational debate them rather than mocking, or attacking.
And I have no illusions that I’m convincing people. What I am doing is forcing them not to share their bigotry with me, since they learn quickly that if you say that sort of thing, Fenris’ll blow up. Sad to say, I think that’s the best I’m gonna get.
<sigh> I fear this post is coming across as the hated “You’re not ________, so you wouldn’t understand” arguement and I don’t mean it that way, since I don’t accept that statement.
In any event suffice it to say: I strongly disagree with your stated position on Israel and Israeli policy, but in answer to your question: no, I don’t think it makes you anti-Semitic at all.
I suppose my liberal, tolerant, “If they aren’t hearing the truth in what we’re saying it’s because we haven’t said it often enough loud enough” attitude can be explained because my wife has been dragging me to our com-sym ( ) church lately. And I have done my share of reacting (over-reacting?) when some bozo starts pushing one of my many hard-earned buttons.
As for “The Jews” controlling all of the money, I’ve got enough friends who wish they were in on that. Hell, if it were true I’d convert!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by dropzone *
But, back to the OP. I hold to the opinion that the Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians has been uniformly shameful and reminiscent of attitudes and practices that preceded the Holocaust.
[QUOTE]
Very, very shallow and, in my opinon, far from the truth but not in any way anti-Semetic. It’s hard for people on both sides of the issue and for Jews and non-Jews to separate the two. Often “Jew” and “Israeli” are, incorrectly, used as synonyms. It ticks me off to hear people do that.
The problem (not with you, of course) is that large groups of people on “your side” of the fence are using the Zionism is evil/Israel is evil rhetoric as cover for anti-Semitic views. While not everyone who disagrees with the policies of Israel is anti-Semitic…
:: grits teeth, forces himself to be more objective ::
While many of the people who disagree with the policies of Israel are not anti-Semitic, there are enough Jew-haters mixed in with the the rest that it’s sometimes hard to distinguish. (Key warning sign: “Arabs are Semites too! So I can’t be anti-Semitic!” which is right up there with “But some of my best friends are…”)
It’s like the anti-affirmative action crowd. There’s a legitimate argument to be made against affirmative action. Many people have done so articulately and rationally. Unfortunately, there since are racists also using the same arguments to mask their hatred and bigotry that saying anything on the topic is sometimes like tap-dancing in a mine-field.
Yes, I’ve tried avoiding that one here, true as it may be. Also, “But some of my closest relatives are Jewish,” so I don’t get the self-hatred accusations.
I appreciate the effort you are going to to push aside your inclination to tar us all with the same brush, Fenris. There are damned good reasons for your concern, but that is why I brought up the topic in the first place. It’s all too easy to rely on ones assumptions and, dare I say, prejudices.
Yep, there are a lot of them, and few know it better than those of us who have been criticizing Israeli policies for a long time. Couple of simple tests: people who refuse to accept the two-state solution (the push them into the sea crowd), people who tend to foam at the mouth as they pronounce the word Zionist (not a joke, I have actually seen this happen), people who spend their entire lives dragging up pre-Independence terrorists attacks on the British. Yep, I’ve seen them all – and have quite vocally pointed them out as the racist assholes they are.
If you disagree with a policy of Israel, it does not mean that you are anti-Semitic. Some people might erroneously think you are anti-Semitic in this case - if they didn’t know more about you.
If you were anti-Semitic, though, you would disagree with most of Israel’s policies.
You might find yourself disliking many Jewish things and be unconsciously anti-Semitic.
While it is essentially “racist” (I put that in quotes because of the whole Jew-is-a-race-not-a-religion debate), it only exists because of the specific mandate of Israel. Israel was created to be a Jewish state (much as Jordan was created to be a Hashemite state, and Albania to be Albanian). I’ll remind you that in many parts of world, people of different ethnicities tend to kill each other unless a border is put between them, and that this has happened to the Jews in recent memory. The world decided that the Jews needed a state, and the UN partitioned Palestine in 1948 accordingly.
The Law of Return only states that Jews get automatic citizenship in their Jewish state. While it is racist, viewing the events of the past few millenia, especially that of Nazi Germany, it is mostly pragmatic (and similar laws exist elsewhere, as stated above by bagkitty). Most of the world’s nations locked their doors to Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany. Israel exists so that will never happen again.
That being said, I believe there is a strong mitigating factor – people of other religions/ethnicities/whatever can become citizens of Israel with full rights. Sure, it is not automatic like it is for Jews. Sure, it takes a while. But, just as in America, anybody can move to Israel and become a citizen, and vote, and serve in parliament. There are no other “racial” laws besides the law of return.
Israel absorbed giant exogenous Jewish populations at numerous times in their history (at least Yemen, Albania, Ethiopia, Russia). The Jewish populations of these places were in risk, and in some cases Israel just airlifted every single Jew to Israel. This comes at enormous expense, but it is all done because of the law of return. The Jewish nightmare is as follows. Let’s take a hypothetical state of Israel without the law of return where the population is 49% Jewish and 51% other. No Jew gets automatic citizenship. Then one day, the government of East Buttfuckia deicdes to kill all of their numerous Jewish population. A plebicite is given in Israel-with-no-return (or a vote before parliament or whatever) and it is decided that Israel cannot absorb all East Buttfuckian Jews. Doors are closed, and the East Buttfuckian Jews are subject to the wrath of their leaders. Then we are just back to square one, aren’t we?