What do you mean by screwed up?
Two of them are dead (Robins II and IV), but last I heard Robin I is still doing OK as Nightwing, and Robin III is back in action.
I like sidekicks. They allow the writer to showhorn in some youthful whimsy into an otherwise dark character’s story (Robin, most of Wolverine’s youthful psuedo-sidekicks), and give a character legacy. Batman and the Flash have been improved as a franchise because of Dick and Wally, and now Tim and Bart. No, sidekicks aren’t for everyone, but ny giving a hero family, it does improve the story.
Well, Villains just aren’t nuturing, paternal people.They need to get in touch with their inner child.
And, if they did get in touch with their inner child, they’d stop being villains.
I’d just like to mention that it annoys me somewhat when someone posts a thread, ostensibly to debate a point, and titles it “Resolved : I’m Right”.
It doesn’t exactly convey open-mindedness.
Sorry, Askia.
On topic, personally, I can take or leave sidekicks. They’re an excellent concept in moderation.
Didn’t Cap have a new Bucky who eventually became his own hero, Nomad.
Purple suit, yellow cape with large discs he used to throw like Caps sheild.
I used to think the same way, CG, until someone kindly explained that it is a common debating kick-off method, on- and offline.
Iconic, shmonic. What matter is sales, and from the early '60’s to the mid-'90’s, Marvel’s superhero comics outsold DC. By the early '90’s and maybe before, DC was sometimes the market share champ because they had a wider line than Marvel and embraced the TPB earlier, but in terms of in-continuity superhero stuff, Marvel did quite well without sidekicks, thank you.
–Cliffy
Pre-Avengers I don’t think the comparison to Sue and Jean are apt. They were the “distaff” members (to use a phrase I recall generating some angst in the FF letters pages in the early 80s) of a multi-part team, versus Jan’s status as sole partner. I would put her much closer to Bucky or Toro than I would Sue or Jean. She was significantly younger than Hank, her powers were significantly less (she didn’t have a “sting” for a while, shooting little needles instead IIRC) and he served as her mentor in super-heroing. Sidekick in all but name, and thinking back to the early sidekicks, were they called sidekicks within the stories or were they called partners? I don’t recall the word “sidekick” in any of the (admittedly few) original Captain America stories, or the early Batman stories. I don’t think Supergirl was ever referred to as Superman’s “sidekick” in the stories.
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
One of the reasons I stopped reading comics back in the 80s was that I became sick to my stomach from Chris Claremont torturing teenagers in the X-Men.
There is no excuse for putting children into combat. There is less excuse for adults deliberating encouraging them.
QUOTE]
Sheesh, WE"RE TALKING ABOUT COMIC BOOKS. Can you think of teenagers in other fantasy stories that had major roles and risked their lives. Duh…yah!
To quote Uncle Ben, with great power comes great responsibility.
Professor X trained his youth and used them when society needed their unique abilites. He tried to teach individuals responsibility because he knew they needed some guidence. If you got powers then you’ll likely use them. If you have them at 15 then you might not wait until you’re 21 to decide Aha! now I’m an adult and will use my powers.
DC had tooooo many. As a marketing tool it didn’t do much for me. Marvel could have had one or two more and kept them interesting. They seemed to concentrate all of them in the Xmen.
A street wise kid who discovers some interesting ability and is taken underwing by Spidey or Daredevil. A teen Asgardian on earth with Thor for a limited time might have been interesting. Then they could bring him back for guest appearences.
CandidGamera: Point taken. But I think: "Resolved’ coupled with an unusual point of view gets people’s attention. I think you know me to be farily open minded, the lag between my cheeky assertions and new facts and the resulting cognitive dissonance aside. I usually get there. Thanks for sharing my view that sidekicks aren’t necessarily evil.
Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor: In the traditional way of writing villains, sure – Villains are bombastic, treacherous and heartless and have no love for anyone. But if we’re talking about reinventing sidekicks, possibly on both sides of justice, we should allow for the fact that even monsters like Hitler doted on children. Love is not an obstacle to villainy. Also if you’re ( well, not you but the editorial you) going to take the position that “Heroes shouldn’t put a child in danger under any circumstances” then what about villains? Street gangs are known to deliberately recruit young, impressionable kids and put them to work as sneak thieves, pick pockets, drug dealers, mules, runners, lookouts, soldiers. Chinese girls have been forced into prostitution young as 11. In Kung Fu cinema teenagers are gangland bosses, yakuza lieutenants, enforcers and assassins-- positions of skill and trust. That sounds like a ready pool of corrupt juvenile sidekicks to me.
Menocchio: FINALLY. Someone says it. Thank you.
rjung: Because I dunno what happened to Toro and I’m not sure Rick Jones was really ever a traditional sidekick. He was 1) the Hulk’s young caretaker 2) the Avengers mascot 3) Captain Marvel’s equal partner and 4) Captain America’s fully experienced adult equal partner. At no time did he really apprentice under a single superhero. It’s not like the Hulk taught him how to “smash!” or Captain America taught him how to throw the shield.
Harborwolf: At this point, since sidekicks are seen as so passe, the best way would be if two or three unrelated major Marvel heroes took on sidekicks and smash myths related to them. My vote for three most interesting possibilities: Daredevil (street fighting), Dr. Strange (mystic arts) and The Thing (science/high adventure – btw, with the Thing, I mean someone other than Franklin.)
Otto. Oh, Wasp worked with Ant-Man (or Yellowjacket or Giant-Man) prior to the Avengers? Oh, well. she may have been his sidekick at one time and moved up to “partner” status. I take it back. If so, she’s the first “sidekick” to marry her “hero.”
The term sidekick may not have been used, but if you have two people paired together just look at: 1) age 2) differing abilities 3) whether they have an equal partnership or not. Supergirl was originally Superman’s sidekick under wraps – he helped mold her identity, abilities, and ideology – mentored her, advised her. That she doesn’t work closely with him except on really big cases speaks more to their power levels than anything.
Cliffy. “Shmonic?”
It might be coincidence but – I think Marvel have seriously miscalculated and underestimated the effect sidekicks had on bringing in younger readers. By appealing to teenagers and college students, lacking sidekicks to appeal to young readers caught up with Marvel by the mid-90s – in addition to all those other gimmicky sales promotions of that era. Also, almost no Marvel character can claim to be apprenticed crimefighters since they were kids. Dozens of DC characters have that experience.
- Dick Grayson
- Jason Todd - Killed by Joker in “A Death in the Family”
- Tim Drake
… who’s No. 4?
(Embarrassed at showing how out of it I am)
Robin 4 was Stephanie Brown, an ally of Batman and Robin 3 who was originally known as the Spoiler. (She went around Gotham City telling everyone how the latest movies ended, before people got a chance to see them.) But seriously, she only acted as Robin for a short time, and was killed during the “War Games” storyline. Her father, Arthur Brown, was the C-list villain Cluemaster.
Oh, and by the way, speaking of spoilers…
As of the latest Batman comic, Jason Todd is back to life as the new Red Hood!
Yeah, but Stephanie was Robin for like a week, and was no longer Robin at the time of her death, so I don’t think she counts.
Really, considering how much his life has been screwed up, Tim is remarkably stable.
Meh. It’s arrogant-sounding, and thus out of character for Askia. Just because something’s common doesn’t mean it doesn’t grate the nerves.
- Stephanie Brown, but she hardly counts since she was only briefly Robin in an attempt to shame Tim (who had temporarily retired) into taking up the mask again. It failed, she was fired, then got herself killed attempting to implement one of Batman’s (rather half-baked, if I may say) plans herself.
They’re making Robin too dark now, which is regrettable, IMHO. Robin should be a light of humor and hope to Batman’s fearsomeness and brooding. A foil as well as a partner.
We all know I embody meekness, modesty and never, ever try to provoke, agitate or mouth off.
> Shadow Laugh > Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAA!
Rick Jones certainly thought of himself as a sidekick, thus the title of his book. I would submit that he was the MU’s seminal sidekick. Always in the background, never in the limelight.
In the forties, sidekicks were added because they increased sales.
In the sixties, Stan Lee determined that the target audience of comics wanted to identify with the hero himself not a sidekick. Judging by sales, it would appear he was right.
Are things different now? I’m not sure, I haven’t been a teenager in many, many years. But, when I was a teenager, I wanted to identify with the heroes, so I read the X-books. (Now that I’m a surly old man, I want to keep those punk kids outta my comics! :D) Seriously, when a sidekick is done right, it can add a layer of humanity to the hero. When it’s done wrong…