Resolved: The US should bomb Syria

I’ve heard others take this line. It sounds terribly harsh considering the kind of suffering that is going on over there. OTOH, to actually solve the problem militarily requires taking out the regime and many of the rebels, seizing the WMDs and (probably) installing a US-friendly government. I predict years, a million dead and unpredictable unintended consequences, all at a cost of over $1 trillion. Based on “high confidence” and not “certification”.

Limited strikes won’t be worth two shits, and will probably lead incrementally to the above scenario while those responsible proclaim: “who’da thunk it?!” Without wide global support, don’t go there. Sending food would do more.

We can always change our minds later if the world becomes convinced it is necessary.

You’re crazy if you think getting a UN mandate is a reasonable possibility. Regardless of the evidence, so long as Russia and China sit on the Security Council with veto power, UN approval for military intervention will not be coming.

We can’t call you crazy in GD.

Beyond that, you appear to have forgotten that so long as China and Russia are on the security council what you’re proposing would be useless since they’d block any move against Syria.

This is a difficult question and there are valid arguments on both sides. On balance I tend to agree with the OP. There is an international norm against using chemical weapons especially on civilians. It’s worth protecting. Assad probably broke it and he needs to pay a price.Furthermore my hunch is that this policy will accomplish its narrow goals. The Assad regime is rational and will be deterred by military strikes from using chemical weapons again in any major way.

How could you be convinced if you haven’t seen the evidence? Unless someone on the SDMB works in the Obama administration, I don’t think any of us here have seen the purported evidence. This is a feature, not a bug.

  • Honesty

No one so far has convinced me that bombs or missiles would do any good. We know what will happen - the day after the bombing the news will be full of pictures of dead children who were (or claimed as) collateral damage in a strike that achieved nothing.

There is also the far from minor point that the USA only has one ally in this venture - France (And we know how that will turn out). For whatever reason, your president has totally failed to make friends anywhere in the world.

I strongly oppose intervention, but shockingly don’t see an argument on either side in this thread that approaches my position.

I will note invalid reasons to oppose intervention:

  1. The intelligence is faulty. (Expressed most inappropriately by Stranger.) This isn’t a valid argument. For one, states have to act based on the best intelligence available to them. If you have no confidence in specific pieces of intelligence, you generally should not act on it. However the argument being proposed by the group that is concerned about the intelligence on this matter is that because the political administration “lied” prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq we can never trust U.S. intelligence at the worst, or at best we have to have “proof beyond a reasonable doubt to act.”

The international stage is not a court of law, nor should the professionals analyze intelligence based on prior misdeeds of the political branch. But to analyze past intelligence failures, basically only the United States had intelligence indicating things like yellowcake uranium and etc in regard to Iraq. The intelligence was so weak that individuals in the intelligence community actually went public to try and debunk the evidence, to let the public know it was not reliable.

In this scenario three countries (including one that did not support our invasion of Iraq in 2003): France, UK, and the United States have multiple confirmed reports by independent analysis of physical evidence that the Assad regime used chemical weapons on its people. Not only this time, but repeatedly in the past on a smaller scale. A President or any state leader has to be able to act on reasonable intelligence, the intelligence we have more than fits that criteria. The idea that they should only act on “beyond reasonable doubt” intelligence is insane, because that would literally paralyze government. A criminal court can operate on that standard, which requires you to exclude any reasonable alternatives. A state would be paralyzed by inaction in foreign affairs if it only acted on the same level of certainty.

  1. We should only act with UN Security Council approval. This is also faulty and looks at the UN through rose colored glasses. The UN has its positives, but it has many negatives. The permanent members of the security council have veto power over any sort of UN Security Council resolution–this is actually a flaw in designing a truly international body and instead was designed specifically to give the United States (who was most influential in forming the UN after WWII) power to never have UN sanctioned military action happen without its approval. Obviously the other five permanent members exercise that same level of power. It isn’t based on any internationally positive concepts or anything other than basically giving to five states extraordinary power to say they get veto power over the military activities of the UN.

If we view the war in Syria as a humanitarian atrocity which I believe all neutral observers must, even if chemicals weapons had not been used, and we view the use of chemical weapons as intrinsically undesirable and against humanitarian norms then the mission of the UN would demand that it address those concerns. Instead, you have China blocking any intervention over humanitarian concerns because China itself (while dramatically improving) commits many humanitarian abuses and supports many countries which do the same. China does not as a policy ever want the international community to respond to even the worst humanitarian abuses by dictators perpetrated on their own people. Russia is voting based purely on its geopolitical self interest, it has a small refueling base in Syria. It is its only base in the eastern Mediterranean and without it all Russian ships would have to sail through the Bosporus and into a Russian black sea port to refuel and resupply. Russia has also invested considerable amount of money and material in keeping Assad in power. Its vote is based exclusively on crass geopolitical concerns.

For that reason the UN SC has no real validity as anything but something that expresses the geopolitical desires of its participants. It is not a moral validator by any means, nor is there a moral or humanitarian aspect to its decisions.

If you genuinely believe that the U.S. must have the backing of a security council resolution, then what you’re saying is you’re 100% in favor of never intervening in Syria regardless of what Assad does. If that’s your position, you should just say so–don’t hide behind the security council which is a body of no real validity when talking weapons proliferation or humanitarian concerns. Two of its members are probably the two powers most responsible for weapons proliferation around the world and are significant violators of human rights norms.

Now, here are some invalid arguments made by those who support military action:

  1. It is necessary on humanitarian grounds. I’d argue the military action proposed advances no humanitarian purpose. Even if we somehow completely destroyed Assad’s chemical weapons stockpile, the fact is he has killed probably fifty times as many people as were killed in the chemical weapons attack with conventional weapons. The pro-Assad militias round up non-combatants who support any opposition group and summarily execute them. They butcher civilians every day and make no regard to collateral damage in their military operations. In fact, many of their operations they specifically try to maximize the number of civilians killed to weaken the opposition. Slapping Assad, while it may satisfy some feel good desires serves no humanitarian purpose.

Even if we “took it all the way” and actually committed to toppling Assad, unfortunately that would likely advance no humanitarian purpose. There is a small amount of the rebels forces who are secular (and being backed by Saudi Arabia) that may behave appropriately if they won the war (that’s a big maybe, and how secular they are is also a giant question mark.) The rest of the opposition are bad sorts, the ones who aren’t backed by al-Qaeda affiliates are still pretty terrible when it comes to human rights. The Alawite minority and probably the Christian minority in Syria would face genocide if these groups won the war, and in fact when they’ve had a chance they’ve killed as many of those minority groups as possible whenever they’ve had the chance.

Even if we invaded Syria, to topple Assad and “impose” some order on Syrian society so that the extant rebel groups don’t take over and start killing all of their enemies that is likewise unlikely to advance any humanitarian purpose. What will instead happen is we’ll divide Syrian society into groups that have reasons to support the occupation and new government we build up, and those that do not. They will fight one another and continue to commit atrocities against one another. In the process many American soldiers will die, and in our military operations against the insurrection we’ll inevitably cause collateral damage, further enraging the Arab world against the United States. The resulting insurrections would most likely continue to pile up thousands of dead civilians on both sides–so I see no humanitarian positives even with the absolute, strongest type of U.S. intervention.

  1. The U.S. needs to stop chemical weapons proliferation. This was the first argument expressed in this thread, that if chemical weapons use is permitted, they will proliferate more and more as groups come to view them as valid instruments of warfare. I’ll admit that’s a more novel argument than what I typically see in regard to chemical weapons. But, I still view it as flawed. Everyone knows chemical weapons have a powerful utility in certain aspects of warfare, especially when you can use them against enemy troop formations or civilians in areas removed from your own troop formations or civilians. Because of the nature of chemical gas, they are dangerous and often ineffective when used in a direct battle, but they can inspire fear and demoralize people when used in other scenarios. Realistically then I would argue the incentive to use chemical weapons has always been there. Likewise, I do not think there is any substantial disincentive for terrorist groups to use chemical weapons other than they simply haven’t been able to either access any or produce any and get them to desired targets.

I’d argue the type of dictatorial countries that would potentially be willing to sell chemical weapons to a terrorist group by and large already stockpile chemical weapons. The fact that we haven’t seen substantial (or even really any) proliferation of chemical weapons to terrorist groups is evidence even the worst state actors prefer to keep such weapons in the hands of state actors and not terrorist groups. This is similar to the fear that if the Iranians get a bomb they’ll give it to a terrorist group–that makes no sense, the last thing Iran would want is to give a valuable weapon to an uncontrollable terror group.

We already sanction countries that use chemical weapons, so it is not without penalty. Further, in the past countries that have used chemical weapons in war (both Iran and Iraq) have mostly not been punished for that. Sure, we invaded Iraq but not in response to its actual use of chemical weapons. Iraq used them in the Iran-Iraq war, in response we did nothing. Iraq used them against Kurds and opposition during the uprising following the Persian Gulf War–we did nothing in terms of trying to topple him. We did levy sanctions and maintain sanctions. But ultimately what this shows is that letting a dictator get away with using chemical weapons against its own people does not seem to lead to any greater proliferation of chemical weapons nor does it lead to those weapons ending up in the hands of terrorists.

Most of these arguments I reject out of hand, regardless of who is right or wrong on the specifics. Whatever the humanitarian argument, I see no reason to intervene solely on humanitarian grounds. Now, the chemical weapons argument, in regard to proliferation (which could affect the United States) I could see acting on that basis if we actually had a genuine fear of chemical weapons proliferation. I don’t see that in this situation, though. In fact intervention, which might weaken the Assad regime could actually result in chemical weapons falling into the hands of non-state actors in the ensuing chaos, which would be our worst fear and a direct result of our own actions.

I don’t think that toppling Assad advances the interests of the United States one bit, and that is core to my argument. If toppling Assad does not advance our interests at all, then what purpose is served by “slapping” him? Certainly no humanitarian purposes. Certainly no chemical weapons proliferation purposes. I guess some vague argument that it’ll “teach” dictators that using chemical weapons gets them “punished?”

Dictators are good at doing cost-benefit analysis, I’d argue that’s why Assad has actually used chemical weapons. He probably figured the U.S. would either not respond, or if it did it would be a series of limited strikes from which he could recover, and that ultimately using chemical weapons was still worth it in response to these strikes.

Random air strikes shouldn’t be likened to “fines” or some other minor punishment in the criminal justice system. These air strikes would really serve no purpose at all, and most importantly even if they significantly altered Assad’s behavior I still do not see how that advances U.S. interests whatsoever.

Having watched zero Frontline specials on the topic, my opinion is worth less than the proverbial two cents.
But to attack the side whom we hope will win makes the affair look like a chapter of Through the Looking Glass.

Arab Spring … Sprang … Sprung.

Let me clarify and put it simplistically. Assad is not on our side: he is on the side of Russia and Iran. His enemies are secular (yay!) and jihadist (boo!). A year ago, the secular opponents were more powerful militarily than the jihadist ones. Now it’s the opposite.

Anyway, there’s little we can sensibly do about the Syrian Civil War. The point of the bombing would be to enforce a norm against chemical weapons, one that has held (barely) since WWI. (Chem weapons have been used, but they are not yet SOP.)

I respectfully point out that posts that emphasize predictions (what will happen) belong in your thread. This thread is about what should happen. I acknowledge that the issues touch on each other.

Martin’s argument is long and varied. I will focus on the part that relates most to the OP. To be clear, I’m arguing for a limited engagement. To be extra clear, starting wars with limited ends does not have a very good track record, though Obama avoided mission creep in Libya and held Pentagon war proponents to their word in Afghanistan.

No. There is a norm against chemical weapons and among rules of war (a recent invention) norms are among the most powerful tools. Empirically speaking. Cite: Recommended WAPO explainer on Syria which counts against your monthly articles (h/t bup).

I didn’t have sales in mind. I had in mind terrorists stealing sarin or synthesizing mustard gas on their own.

I don’t know what to make of this. Our enforcement of the norm against chemical weapons has been imperfect. So what? Setting up the principle that, “If you use chem weapons, you invite parties on the sideline to attack you,” seems like a decent precedent, even if reality mandates that it would be imperfectly enforced.

A secular Syria would certainly advance US interests, but I don’t see that as an option worth pursuing: at the moment it is simply too difficult a task of nation building and conquering. The goals in the OP are not to topple Assad. It’s to get him to knock it off with the chem weapons and not use them routinely. As he already has established that he is One Mean Bastard, this narrow goal might be achievable. As for who runs Syria in a few years, I assume that will be settled after warring parties are tired of beating each other over the head.

How’s that Iraq and Afghanistan invasion coming along? Time for another US success story?

Why on Earth would you assume that a post-Assad Syria would be secular, or that the Arab world would permit a US or UN led effort to oust Assad to install a secular government? Do you actually know anything about the issue that you didn’t read in the US press or coming from the US government which has every reason to portray Assad and his actions (real and purported) in nothing but the worst light?

When you’ve already reduced a conflict to “Us vs. Them” you’ve eliminated any point of discussion or debate.

Stranger

[QUOTE=Stranger]
Why on Earth would you assume that a post-Assad Syria would be secular, or that the Arab world would permit a US or UN led effort to oust Assad to install a secular government?
[/QUOTE]
You misunderstand my position. Let me restate it. A secular post-Assad Syria would indeed be in the US interest, as would cold fusion, adamantium armor and a bouquet of ponies. But since we lack magic wands, we shouldn’t seriously pursue any of these options. The goals in the OP are not to topple Assad. It’s to get him to knock it off with the chem weapons and not use them routinely.
[QUOTE=Musicat]
How’s that Iraq and Afghanistan invasion coming along? Time for another US success story?
[/QUOTE]
I’m not arguing for an invasion. In fact, I’ve done the opposite in this thread.

George Packer offers a Socratic dialogue, or maybe just an heuristic one. I present it as a response to my last quote: And what do we do if Assad retaliates against Israel or Turkey? Or if he uses nerve gas somewhere else?

We hit him again.

And it escalates.

Not if we restrict it to cruise missiles and air strikes.

Now you’re scaring me. Have you forgotten Iraq?

Not for a single minute.

My point is that you can’t restrict it. You can’t use force for limited goals. You need to know what you’ll do after his next move, and the move after that. My 2 hour coursework at Frontline didn’t teach me how to do proper contingency planning. I see I missed the latest episode though.

Just like the “norm” against all kinds of things that rogue states routinely flout. Rogue states do not care about norms.

This didn’t happen in Iraq, and it extensively used chemical weapons throughout the Iran-Iraq war, and maintained them until “some point” in the 90s when they were destroyed.

That you missed the point, is what you should make of it. There is no evidence from past experiences that allowing dictators to use chemical weapons leads to them being stolen by terrorists or sold to rogue actors.

The opposite of an invasion is bombing?

So hows that Iraq and Afghanistan bombing thing coming along? Ready for another US success story?

Ground troops are typically required if one is to invade a country. As for your question, the US secured its objectives in Afghanistan. Aerial warfare achieved success in Libya, Kosovo and Bosnia. The no-fly zone in Iraq during the 1990s led to a Kurdish renaissance. The invasion of Iraq during the 2000s led to a quagmire.

(Martin: your post will require more thought on my part.)

Syrian rebels include Al Qaeda. Do we (Americans and the western societies) have short memories?

Syria pose no threat to USA or western hemisphere or Asia. We once claimed Al Qaeda posed a threat like 9/11 (supposedly). So let Assad takes care of his oppositions that include the Al Qaeda. Shouldn’t we all be shaking his hands?
“Fighting ignorance since I believe I may have been duped”

Please define what you mean by success and how a Syria that looks like Libya today would be good for the US.

,

Only with long-term UN Peacekeeping efforts afterwards. That’s ain’t happening after Obama’s proposed adventure.

Obama isn’t planning a no-fly zone in Syria.

This is so frustrating.

Have you give it a possibility that you - and public, in general - have been lied and manipulated at every turn in last 12 years or so?

Ever since 9/11, things progressively started not to make any sense at all - e.g. Talibans went on record to say show me evidence, we give you Bin Laden… and they get bombed; Iraq said there are no WMD’s but US forges evidence… and they get bombed; Al Q self-appointed spokesperson, born in US has previous relations with US Government… and then he gets droned etc etc etc … and now it will be Syria, forged and made up evidence… and they get bombed.

Maybe… just maybe it’s time to entertain some other possibilities of what’s going on, what the long term goal is and who is behind all of this. Maybe, just maybe when you have a contradictory evidence or conclusion that contradicts reality… maybe it’s time to question evidence or conclusion?

But, this is how debates go - even though US Government makes stuff up all the time - and I mean ALL THE TIME - the only information that is accepted is information supplied by that Government.

Maybe US Government is in charge of AL Q? Give that a little thought and see how it aligns with what’s going?

It doesn’t align at all with what’s going on. It just sounds like another crackpot CT.

One out of two ain’t bad. A 50% rate will lead to how many lost lives this time? Will bombing save lives? :rolleyes: What exactly are our objectives? Getting the Arabs to hate us more than they already do?