Resolved: Unions are Big Smelly Bullies

Great Debates
21

I have seen this - the union I was represented by at the time declined an additional holiday offered by the company. At pretty much the same time, I was moving from a union position to a management position, and from both sides, my response was a big ol’ :confused:

I have played just about all sides in this particular game – as an employee represented by a union (although not a member), as management not really in contact with the union, and specifically a manager involved in union neogotiations. One important role that unions have is to serve as an ombudsperson of sorts. As a manager, my #1 goal is to take actions that benefit the company. Even if I have personal sympathy for a particular situation, the company comes first in my decision making. The union process enables an employee(s) to address a given situation with the employee’s best interests in mind. When the system works, and I believe it only makes the news in those few occasions when it doesn’t work, the result is often a very reasonable compromise.

Now, we can take that a step farther, and see that for many companies, it is in their best interest to treat the employees not only fairly, but more than fairly. The benefits for the company are happier, more productive employees, low attrition, etc. I think in some ways this has created some of the current problematic union situations. To entice the employees to join/support unions, the union must demonstrate how much better things are with a union, and sometimes create mountains out of molehills in order to have an issue to rally around.

22

If the employee retains the right to quit work at any time, the employer retains the right to fire him at any time. If the employeer must give two weeks notice, so then should the employee.

If the employees strike demanding better pay, benefits, etc, and other workers would rather step up and take the position these chaps are throwing away, I say let 'em. But then, of course, unions couldn’t bully anyone around.

Now, don’t get me wrong, unions certainly have served a useful purpose, and they possibly still do; I simply disagree with their means.

23

It was a long time ago and I was betetr informed at the time. Now I forget the details. I do not have solid data on this and maybe someone can provide it or refute it but IIRC after the strike UPS was crippled, lost a ton of business to the competition and had to fire a ton of people.

The impression I got at the time was that the UPS strike was merely political. The teamsters union wanted a strike in general terms because it would favor the Union. They picked UPS because it was convenient at that time.

I doubt UPS workers as a whole gained much, if anything.

I am with jarbaby on this one. Union have just become the legal mob.

24

>> My mom is a teacher, and a card-carrying member of the Cleveland Teachers’ Union and the American Federation of Teachers.

Chronos, IMHO the Teachers’ Union is one of the worst offenders and greatly responsible for the sorry state of education.

>> Several folks are saying “Well, if I don’t like a job, I just won’t work there”. What do you think a strike is? It’s a bunch of people not working there! Or, you complain about unions increasing prices for the consumers. Union members are consumers too, you know.

That argument just doesn’t hold water. It is an anticompetitive practice with the aim of increasing the price of their labor which favors a few at the expense of the majority. In any other setting it would be illegal. If sevral companies collude to raise the market prices of their products that would ve very illegal and justly so. They are consumers too. So what? You should not benefit a few at the expense of the rest.

As has been pointed out, the stronger the union, the more corrupt it is and the more the consumer is screwed. I am not saying it has to be that way. I am just saying that is the way things are in this day and age.

25

I absolutely HATE unions, based mostly on my experiences with them. While there are some good things over history that the unions have done in terms of improving labor conditions, what they seem to have become outweighs the good they do. Besides, Unions disrupt the fine balance between supply and demand in the labor and wage pool. I think it would help if union workers got some “sensitivity training”, because a lot of them that work skill positions actually are very talented workers, it’s just they always come across as bullies.

-There is a food chain in our area that went out of business after decades, because it was unionized, and their workers pay scales were way out of line with the rest of theinducrty in the area. Rather than work with the chain to make changes, the food chain has shut down, and 500 workers are scrambling for jobs.

-I workeed for a vendor and went to a Home Depot to set a store. It was a Union shop. There was this shop boss that was walking around, and would not let any of the vendors set screws, saw wood ANYTHING. He even wouldn’t let the HOME DEPOT employees do anything, his carpenters had to do it. And of course, they took their good old time doing it (though, to be fair, they did really nice work). And made sure they were out of there at 330.

-Chicago almost lost the Hardware Show a few years ago (maybe this is similar to Whack-a Mole’s tale). The convention center was pretty much in the grip of the local Union, who was charging vendors $75 to PLUG A CORD IN. It got to the point where major companies were refusing to come, finally the Union backed down a little bit.

While I’m sure there is a lot of good unions do (I think apprenticeship programs and their training is one of them), my impression of them is a bunch of lazy bullies who do more to hold up a project than help it. If on a union job, God Forbid you stand up for yourself, they yell at you, and then hold you up even more. And want to get into a fistfight really quick? Criticize organized labor to a union member.

Union bosses and workers need better PR.

26

You have got to kidding. Yes, that does qualify as unskilled labor - it’s driving a truck. Period. You are greatly exaggerating the “dangers” that they face, as well as the “difficulties” of their jobs. I could write up going to the grocery store in terms that are nearly as scary. I could write my day-to-day life up using the same hyperbole in terms that would turn your hair white.

You do realize that $61,000 is more than many engineers with a BS degree and experience make, right? And I would call Engineering a somewhat more skilled field than, oh, driving a garbage truck…? You do realize that some Doctors start at about $61,000 a year - after a 4-year degree, another 4-years of medical school, a year of internship, and 2-3 years of Residency, right? To compare the skills required to drive a garbage truck with engineering and medicine, and to say that they deserve to make as much as an Engineer or a Doctor, is actually pretty insulting.

I’d say $31,000 a year is more sensible than $61,000 a year, but I have questions about that.

27

And my crucial point is, if UPS is screwing you over, WORK for FedEx. If Company A says “we’re going to pay people 1.00 an hour, and no benefits” NO ONE WOULD WORK FOR THEM, they would work for the company with better benefits, forcing Company A to change. Rather than one day at midnight bringing my company to a screeching halt because my packages ARE ALREADY ON THE TRUCK.

If UPS thought they were going to bully me into supporting them, they did exactly the opposite.

I worked in the office of a unionized restaurant here in Chicago…all the waiters were in the Union, including the 85 year old deaf man whom no one could understand and would wet his pants on the job. Management wouldn’t dare fire him because the union said they would bring up an age discrimination suit.

Sounds fair!

jarbaby

28

**

Or join a union, and fight for a job you may like and is convenient, etc. Company B would see what Company A is doing and lower their wages, etc.

That’s a hell of a Union!!! Most of the time, though, people do get fired if they are incompetent. If Management hasn’t historically screwed people over, they work with the Union.

A better example of Unionization may be Germany. It’s a highly unionized country, due to (IIRC) Bismarck setting up unions to fight Socialism.

The workers are highly trained, have outstanding benefits (including up to 8 weeks of vacation a year!) and are well paid. And yet, the German economy is one of the strongest in the world, even after incorporating East Germany. True, the owners and management don’t get the outrageous salary packages and Golden Parachutes that some of their US counterparts get, but you can’t have everything.

When’s the last time YOU got any training? I never have in a non-union setting, but in a Union job, there has always been standards and procedures and they don’t let anyone work without knowing them.

29

sigh Germany. Is there anything they DON’T know?

30

Anthracite, here it’s more along $33,000…and that’s the starting salary. And we are considered a rural state in many ways, so more advanced, developed states probably pay a lot more.

31

So, jarbabyj-because some unions are corrupt, would that equal that all unions are corrupt?

32

Well, it’s my experience and understanding that all unions support each other. For instance when Local Jugglers #145 goes on strike, the Teamsters, Auto Workers and Shoefitters Unions will all support and picket with them.

So if they all stand together, they have to all fall together. I doubt you’ll find a Union rep coming in here and saying “yeah, those Teamsters have some issues”.

jarbaby

33
  • and even for a welfare-state Dane, I was surprised at the level of law-mandated protection we’re enjoying here.

My maximum workday, any day, is 10 hours, and that’s not just a good idea: It’s the law. (Exceptions apply, of course. It’s not as if the firefighters go home if they run late.) My company accepts this to the degree that they pay me a cab home if I’m over the 10-hour mark, on the principle that I’m too tired to let out into traffic. Not too shabby.

As to the questions if unions are Big Smelly Bullies:

Sometimes they are. Then again, sometimes you WANT a BSB fighting in your corner. The only reason I’ve ever paid union dues is that I like having 25 lawyers, all of them specializing in employment law, lining up the instant my employer attempts to screw me. Of course, what this means is that a phone call is probably going to straighten things out and everything is handled civilized and politely.

That being said, it bugs the living hell out of me if Unions try to get into politics, or try to run newspapers etc. As a Danish Union leader said a few years back: “We have won like hell” - IOW, the principles that the Unions had been fighting for were incorporated in law and the Unions were left with a huge apparatus doing nothing but keeping itself alive. That’s my beef with unions these days.

S. Norman

34

I’m not sure if you are mocking my post???

But for someone who uses an example of an 85 year old man who pees his pants to even sigh at the example of German Unionization… seems out of line.

My example is a whole country - yours is one guy out of 150 million workers. Unless you are saying this happens in every restaurant, and in that case, I want statistics and cites.

35

Gazoo…since the day I joined this board it’s been painfully clear that I love Germany and everything about it. I am a Germaniac to the 12th power. I was not mocking your post, I was just joking around.

cripes.

36

democracy is very similar to unionism. there’s a lot of stuff that isn’t great about it (like politicians and hanging chads and that tendency for nothing to get done because of procedure), but it’s certainly preferable to have it than to not have it.

what was the return address, ‘jarbabyj c/o fairyland?’

well, it’d be a great world if there were more than enough jobs to go round, and everyone was wonderfully skilled at everything, and they don’t really have to work if they didn’t want to, but that’s just not the way it is. in a lot of industries, you can’t just quit your job because you don’t like the practices, because you just can’t get another one! working isn’t really a choice, if you want to maintain a reasonable standard of living you have to work. and you should be able to work in reasonable conditions with reasonable support should anyone try to prevent you working in those reasonable conditions. so yes, you could just quit your job when your management decides they don’t want to allow you reasonable workplace conditions, but in many cases, it’s ‘good luck trying to find another one’.

there is the need for government legislation to ensure union workers cannot just be fired if they strike so that the unions can look after there workers’ rights. if companies can fire anyone who tries to stand up for themselves, worst case scenario can see companies lowering wages to $1/hour firing anyoe who doesn’t like it, and still maintaining a large enough workforce because there’ll always be someone who’ll work for slave wages.

37

Sorry. I haven’t been following your posting career. :smiley:

How about a smilie on that post?

At least we can agree on this: 21st Century Germany is good. 20th Century - not so good. 21st Century - good so far.

38

gex

Of course you should. My point is, Unions are not reasonable. Charging someone $350 to load books onto an elevator isn’t the same as preventing 16 year olds from working 85 hours a week, IMHO

gazoo

Well, I liked Germany quite a lot in the 20th Century. My grandfather and greatgrandfather and greatgrandmother are from there. But I suppose you’re referring to that pesky NAZI business, in which not everyone was immersed. :slight_smile:
jarbaby

39

IMHO:

Of course, a union, by its very nature, is a restraint of trade that raises wages above what the free market would provide.

Of course, like any restraint of the free market, this right, can and will be abused to absurd and sometimes criminal lengths.

But, does society gain from this restraint? Unions are highly regulated entities that are on occasion fined or seized by the goverment for abuse. Given this regulation, and the freedom of firms and employees to opt out of a union (granted, almost always through choosing competing non-union firms), the damage, I believe, is minimal and outwieghed by the right of employees to organize.

But also, unions are just one part of how government restricts the operations of the free market.

The largest intervention of government in the free market is not unions but the protection of capital investment through the fictional limited-liability corporation.

It’s so pervasive, most people don’t even recognize it as a restraint of trade. Without the fictional legal-entity of the corporation, businesses could never accumulate the billions of capital from billions of investors that make the modern corporate world.

And it took big government to bring it about. Think about it. In a world without legal corporations, you go to the bank and ask for money. Not for yourself but for ABC Corporation. You tell the incredulous banker that you as an owner are only liable for your investment. You’ll use the loan to start the business and raise even more money by selling shares of stock. You mumble that you personally aren’t asking for the loan but an idea, ABC Corp., is asking. As the bank guards throw you into the street you scream at them how this is a great idea. Which it is, with big government to make it work.

As another example, you might have dropped a few thousand in the dot-com stock market quagmire, but no lender to your dot-com came to your door, tossed you and your family into the street, and took your car to help pay off the millions lost in that bubble’s melt-down.

It’s no joke. Before big government created the corporation, bubbles like the great tulip bulb speculation ruined thousands of investors.

Right now, unions are at an all time low in representation. But their impact on all of the economy - in terms of wages, benefits, and on-the-job safety remains quite high.

So unions are sort of like like… lawyers - another government-imposed restraint of trade designed to interpret and enforce contracts.

They are never big, smelly bullies.

dos centavos

40

jarbabyj-that’s a straw man if I ever saw one.

I don’t believe it’s an issue of Union=good/bad, Employer=good/bad.