You clearly haven’t read the Posse Comitatus Act (or the Constitution). The Regular Army is not supposed to be operating on U.S. soil. Ever. But that’s so inefficient! Yes, and also so necessary to save us from the fate of countries who allow military rule.
a.
The regular army is not to be used to enforce civilian laws. Of course they can operate on US soil, do you really think it’s illegal for, e.g., the army to defend against an invasion? I would have a problem if the Marines were used to deal with looting or other ordinary law violations, because that is indeed what posse comitatus is intended to stop, but as far as actually restoring immediate physical safety, the use of the armed forces can easily be viewed as suppressing an armed insurrection, which is perfectly legal.
How about the Thai and Indonesian governments’ response to the tsunami? With fewer resources they seemed to do pretty well at taking care of their people.
Yes and no. I don’t question their sympathy and well-meaning (just as I don’t a priori question that of the U.S.).
But . . . they had nothing preventative in place and the death toll was as ridiculously high as it was because so many people lived completely unprotected (by the government, or anything) at sea level. N.O. at least tried to have levees and evacuations and the like, incompletely effective though they proved to be.
“But the tsunami was unpredictable! They have limited resources!” True. But, all disasters are in some degree unpredictable and no one has unlimited resources to defend against every imaginable cataclysm. Imagine the death toll in La. and Miss. if the U.S. had Indonesian-style evacuation and shelter plans (i.e., I would imagine, none). We wouldn’t be talking hundreds or thousands. It’d be tens of thousands.
Your example isn’t a bad one. Just shows how incommensurable these sui generis type of events are. Maybe the Indo. or Thai response will, all else being equal, end up looking more attentive and efficient than the U.S. response to Katrina. Maybe not. My only point: jury’s out.
Huerta88, you’ve made you plea, but you’ve provided no reason why we should follow your resolution.
There are people who are criticizing (and defending) certain actions that are clearly shrouded in the fog of the calamity. When the details are made available, those people who guessed wrong will be shown to have been wrong and those who have guessed right will get to be a bit smug about their guesses.
There are also people who are criticizing (or defending) past actions that can be examined because we have the records before us.
So why should everyone sit back for ten days? Is anyone failing to write a relief check (total time, including the stamp and envelope, fewer than two minutes) because they have posted an opinion? Is there any danger that the people providing relief will call it quits and go home because someone on an anonymous message board said hurtful things about their management?
What is the reason you believe that we should abstain from discussing the most momentous event currently in the nation (since most of us are Yanks)?
Haha! Bush FINALLY suspended Posse Comitatus. Now WHY DIDN’T HE DO THAT 4 DAYS AGO!?!
Following heavy summer rains, the Mississippi River flooded its banks in 1927, inundating almost 30,000 square miles and rendering nearly a million people homeless (link). According to the historian who wrote this book about the event, Herbert Hoover, then Secretary of Commerce, had aid on the scene far faster than the present crisis, and that’s without the benefit of air transportation the way we know today. His masterful handling of the situation (brief details) didn’t just contribute to his election the following year; the success of the federal intervention also presaged FDR’s aggressive New Deal program a few years later.
You were saying?
I fail to see how one can honestly compare a flood that started in September of 1926, hit it’s zenith in May of 1927, and subsided over the next three months to the sudden breaking of the levee system surrouding New Orleans due to Hurricane Katrina, resulting in the eventual flooding.
From your own cite, this flood had such “impressive” planning as the needless destruction of the Caernarvon, Louisiana levee in a misguided effort to save New Orleans from being flooded.
Also, from your own cite, many of the African-Americans who were displaced were set up in relief camps and were forced to work – at gunpoint – to aid in the relief efforts.
So, you were saying?
Really? IIRC, th city was under a mandatory evacuation order. People were told to leave the city. The Superdome was openned up as a shelter of last resort for people to ride out the storm-- people who couldn’t or wouldn’t leave the city. They were told they COULD go there, not that they must. They were not told they’d be given room and board for 5 days. Cite:
My questions would be:
Who is in charge at a place like N.O. on the verge of a hurricane? Is there a FEMA official directing everything, or is it the local authorities?
who exactly authorized the openning of the Superdome as a shelter, and how was that managed? (It’s my understanding that it was the mayor who did this, and that it wasn’t until Wednesday that it was openned to the general public.)
3.What exactly was the plan for protecting the peopel who couldn’t (or wouldn’t) leave the city, and what was the expectation in terms of how long they would be in a shelter like the Superdome?
I agree with the tread title.
Now will the OP please give me a date and time it will become OK to priase or chastise the Disaster Response?
Many of us not only read but do so beyond our grade level. So when somebody writes a single line disclaimer and then writes several posts advocating a different viewpoint, we can spot this and address the substance of their message rather than the cover.
Yeah, sorry about that. It’s true that I’m morally superior and blessed and all, but I normally try to hide my divine nature while mingling with the flesh by never mentioning it, much in the manner of how I didn’t mention it here. But sometimes it just seems to overflow this wordly manifestation of my true being. Again, sorry for anyone who may have been blinded, deafened, and struck lame. Send me an email and I shall heal you.
I guess technically the title line of the OP isn’t part of the thread although it does sort of set the tone for what follows. And don’t get all snippy about what I “hear” - you’re just jealous because the voices in my head don’t want to talk to you.
True enough. There’s nothing in your post that specified any particular administration. You could have been referring to anyone who was President of the United States during the month of August 2005 and we were wrong to assume you were talking about George Bush. Well, there was the part where you mentioned him by name.
Mom, what have I told you about posting when you’re drunk?
New Orleans is not the entirety of Louisiana. Where was the response from the state of LA? There’s lots of state there, and the government of LA is supposed to be responsible and responsive. They were neither.
Face it, fine people. The government of Louisiana and the city of NO have been corrupt for years. It’s the standard joke, well known by everyone. The primary job of FEMA is to assist the locals in their recovery. But the locals have abdicated their own responsibility.
The levees did not break during the storm. They broke afterwards. It was not expected, no matter what your 20/20 hindsight tells you. “But GPF, where was all the water and food and diapers and wet-naps? Those poor people waited for days for help!” Well, where was the assistance from the state of LA? Non-existant or poorly implimented.
The Federal Government is not here to wipe our noses and pat our bottoms on a per-city basis. Their job is to watch over the US as a whole. The States are there to watch over their citizens and cities.
It’s a shame that the city of NO turned on itself so quickly, but what do you expect from what is essentially a welfare state? When it comes to generational poverty (which NO and many other cities have), there is no future. There is no past. There is only now and the now consists of ‘What have you given me now?’.
People die, and it’s a damn shame that people died and are dying because of this weather and public-works situation. But, to point to Washington and shriek like a banshee that they are responsible is a mental and logical stretch that is not only wrong, but offensive.
Yes. I’m offended at the rampant ignorant and stupid screetching from people that should know better. And, by the rules that have been set into place, the fact that I’m offended beats your opinion.
January 21st, 2009.
Someone should tell the Department of Homeland Security. Perhaps you could give them a call, seeing as how you know something they don’t.
People can correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we have a really big war once over State’s rights? And not wanting the government to step in and tell them what to do? First the state does the best it can during an emergency, then it asks for aid from the government once it knows it’s overwhelmed, right?
The state of Louisiana knew that the hurricane was going to hit it and that it would be a class 4 or 5. Hell, I knew by Sunday, and I barely watched the news last weekend. They knew that the levees weren’t designed to withstand a class 4+ hurricane. Yet did they make all possible effort to evacuate everyone, by making public transportation free so money wasn’t the dividing line between going or being forced to stay? No. They allowed companies shut down public transportation making it impossible for those who didn’t own a vehicle or could pay for cab fare to leave. They didn’t even make use of vehicles they owned, like school buses, to provide free transportation.
Sure, they designated the Dome as an emergency shelter, but did they have the foresight to stock it with enough food and water to last for days, and to set up chem toilets when the power inevitably went out? NO. For god’s sake, why not? It’s not as though they didn’t know days in advance that this sort of thing was likely to happen. Until I heard reports otherwise, I thought these things were a given. I’m not a governor, I’m not a mayor, I’m not even 30 years old yet so I don’t have decades of “wisdom” to draw from like an average political figure, nor have I even experienced a major hurricane for that matter, but I knew these things were important. And it seems like anyone with half a brain should have this sort of forethought, particularly people who are in charge and have lived through hurricanes before over the course of their lives. And why did they allow development of those areas in the flood plains in the first place? Maybe they couldn’t afford better levees, but I’m pretty sure enforcing zoning laws to prevent development in areas they’ve known for decades were problematic would have been fairly inexpensive…
We can blame Bush and the US government, and they do deserve some of the blame for what seems to have been a very sluggish response, but the fact remains that if those who were supposed to be looking out for Louisiana’s welfare - those in its own government - hadn’t screwed up so badly in the first place, we wouldn’t have had thousands and thousands stranded in terrible conditions who needed to be rescued by US government agencies.
From the white house:
Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana August 27, 2005
I recall a war over that, and the State’s Rights folk lost. Look it up.
If Al Quada had bombed the levees, we’d have the same damage. I’d expect we’d expect the Feds to direct recovery efforts. How is this different?
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/eopindex.htm (pdf or doc)
Yep, Bush did exactly enough of what he was expected to do. He did the MINIMUM he had to do. But when it was clear that his actions weren’t enough, he did NOT push FEMA to get their act together. A real leader would have kicked some FEMA @$$ and not let up until the victims were evacuated.
Did the feds direct the WTC recovery efforts?
I couldn’t find anything about the feds taking over there.