I don’t know that it will generate all that much debate, I’d find it gratifying if it doesn’t because everyone sees it. (here’s a you tube clip of John Lennon explaining it on Dick Cavett and then singing the song.)
But the reality is that no “people” of any color, creed, or nationality, have suffered anywhere near what half the human race has suffered and continues to suffer by virtue of simply being the half that gives birth to and feeds both halves.
The older I get, the more I see and experience, the more i know, the more I see how true this is. I’ve often thought about posting this, and today I was prompted to finally do it by this pit post which isn’t particularly special or unusual - happens all the time in certain countries. And the story referenced in that thread is just a teeny tiny little horrid example of a great big awful truth that goes back to the dawn of human civilization and is still a very long way away from being eradicated.
Do I really need to make a list? Seriously? I bet I don’t.
I think the analogy is fundamentally inaccurate. There is no fundamental difference between “niggers” and other people; the oppression of blacks was entirely due to societal issues which can be, and to some extent have been, changed, and we could some day in the future have a society where there isn’t any oppression based on skin color. However, there are some real, fundamental biological differences between men and women, which are at the heart of at least some gender iniquities. Yes, woman is the one that gives birth to everyone, and no matter how unfair we might think that, we’re not likely to be able to change it any time soon.
Now, there are certainly some iniquities that don’t stem from the biological differences (at least, not directly), and we should certainly do what we can to correct those, as well as easing the biologically-inherent burdens as much as we can. But there’s a limit on how much can be done.
John Lennon is all the cites I need for this here proposition.
Still and all, the OP has an odd ring coming from someone who not long ago was gushing at the prospect of that wonderful young black man Obama being elected President.
Is the current thread a pre-emptive strike towards getting Sarah Palin elected Prez in '12?
Yeah, one of us can get the pickle jar open and the other can reach into that narrow little space to pick up that dropped bolt, but there are jar openers and magnets and other nifty tools.
I find very depressing the not uncommon belief that racism is somehow worse than sexism, that there is some ‘real, fundamental biological’ justification for gender based iniquities. (!which Chronos did NOT say!)
I am just so tired of ‘honor killings’, and genital mutilations, lower wages and greater family & household responsibility …
I am even tired of men who are actually proud of doing housework.
Certainly there are tools for picking up bolts and opening jars, but there is not yet an artificial womb. A man can have offspring with 15 minutes of time invested, while a woman has to invest at least 9 months: That alone has a great many ramifications.
Cecil suggests that much of the inequality, at least in modern-day America, is due to the fact that women get pregnant and bear children but men don’t.
The OP (and others) should check out Jack Holland’s excellent book Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice. He manages to fit an awful lot in 300 pages, from St. Paul to Hitler, concentrating on the misogyny inherent in pretty much all of the world’s major religions. He also offers an alternate expression to that in the OP (though I don’t recall who he was quoting) – ‘Women are the slaves of the slaves.’
But that’s only to be expected, because I might have kids at any moment, right? And once I can’t have kids, I can’t bring that up, because that means I’m old, and certainly not ‘distinguished’.
And some how that just doesn’t make honor-killings or men be praised for sweeping a floor any easier to deal with tonight.
Pardon me, but I would like to indulge in a diatribe. This is not directed at Thudlow, or any individual.
(This could get nasty.)
Don’t you DARE tell me it’s different because I’m a woman; don’t blame it all on the womb.
Don’t you dare act like it is so much worse to pay a black men less than to pay a woman less.
All my damned life I have had to be “better, faster, cheaper”, and I have been. And all my damned life I have been rewarded less.
I have accepted this.
But you don’t tell me that some how it isn’t as bad for me as for my brothers of color.
I can marry a white man, and get my share of the goodies - money and status - that way?
THE HELL WITH THAT! I want my own god-damned money and status.
… and I will praise no man, of any race, for cleaning up after his own self or raising his own kids.
And your wives, and mothers, and daughters will all go through this, too.
Not nasty, but perhaps not appropriate to Great Debates.
I don’t agree with this in general, especially not in the western/civilized world, though I do think that women tend to get the short straw compared to men, especially in bad economic circumstances.
Just to be clear: I think the kind of shit that happens in Saudi Arabia and other nations is completely abhorrent and I don’t subscribe to cultural relativism. It’s a disgrace and peoples who do this should not be (trade) partners, and if we can reasonably do something about it we should. I just think that over here in the western/civilized word, the situation is (getting) (and mostly, has been for the last 1000 years) much better.
Assuming that all other variables are controlled for and you’re being paid less just because you’re a woman, that sounds to me like good grounds for a talk with your boss insisting on a raise. Or if that doesn’t work, a lawsuit.
I agree that women the world over have it worse than men, but I would caution people against comparing women to “blacks” as if these are mutually exclusive groups.
I think it was bell hooks who responded to such comparisons by quoting Sojourner Truth: Aren’t I a woman?*
*I know the famous quote is actually “Ain’t I a woman?”, but I had a professor who argued this wasn’t likely, since Truth had always lived in New York and spoke Dutch (like her owners). Not too many bilingual yankees were saying “ain’t” at the time.
Sigh. All other variables can never be controlled for. I am the only person in my company with exactly my level of education and experience who is doing exactly my job. And that is true for almost every one.
But, if you want to know how it really works?
The bosses don’t decide ‘she’s a woman, we’ll offer her 0.8 on the salary range’; if they can afford 1.2, they offer the job to the man.
Why do women put up with it? They don’t, if they don’t have to. But, often enough, they get no other offers.
I am not bitter; I make a good salary, and I love my job.
But I’d be making more if I were male. And I think that is just as wrong as Mr. X making less because he’s darker complected.
Now, this has nothing on stoning, mutilations, and true economic slavery, but if a degreed ‘white’ American professional is not her brothers’ peer, how much hope is there for my less fortunate sisters?
