I have a son who is mentally retarded. Here in Colorado, the move is on to refer to him and others as ‘consumers’. I dislike the term. Can you imagine me applying to get him on SSI because he is a ‘consumer’? Still …
The word ‘Moron’ was once a clinical definition of a person with a certain degree (I’ve forgotten which, now) of mental retardation. This was replaced just prior to the time I adopted my son because of the negative conotations (remember the moron jokes?). Still, Mental Retardation is a clinical definition (DSM-IV and ICD-9) and that is what we should refer to the folks as. It just makes it easier to explain things.
You’re a textbook example of what I was talking about, Airblairxxx. Otiose emotionality. You’re letting the misuse of words by linguistically challenged pre-adults dictate the proper use of words. You should probably cultivate a thicker skin and not let name calling roll your undies in a bundle. Calling some one with mental retardation “retarded” is an acceptable use of the English word. It is short and it is precise. Calling some one with mental retardation “Intellectual Disabled,” “Mentally Challenged,” “Cognitively Special,” or whatever is convoluted, confounded, and a pure waste.
My objection to PC speech goes far beyond the use of retard. I’ve always related PC speech with Orwellian Newspeak. In essence, attempting to change attitudes and beliefs by changing and restricting the use of certain words. I think it is awfully funny that some people want to change the name of sports teams like the Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians because it might reflect badly on the American Indian population. Or over the now lost battle of the generic use of “he.” And I still often smirk when African-American is used in place of black.
You seem to imply that Republicans are on the six year old level. :rolleyes: Oh how charmingly pro-Democratic!
I did marry someone whose uncle is profoundly retarded with the mental capacity of five or six. (He must be a Republican!) I can safely say that my opinion of the retarded has nose-dived since I met him. There is an undefined quality to humanity, call it soul or spirit or mindfulness, that goes beyond the flesh born of man and women and this retarded man does not have it. He is an empty sack of flesh. He loves watching TV and eating which are the only things he seems capable of as far as I can tell besides soiling himself. But I guess that is good enough for some people. A thoughtful person, i.e. a person that uses thought and reason to make decisions and not wishy-washy emotionality, would conclude that he has little or no value as a member of humanity and has more akin with the animals. The comparison to animals really isn’t fair to animals, though. A better analogy would be to say that retards have the a similar relationship to humanity as an aborted fetus to humanity: development stopped before completion. I suppose such an unusual view makes me a cruel, insensitive, heartless, creepy bastard. So be it.
You’re a textbook example of what I was talking about, Airblairxxx. Otiose emotionality. You’re letting the misuse of words by linguistically challenged pre-adults dictate the proper use of words. You should probably cultivate a thicker skin and not let name calling roll your undies in a bundle. Calling some one with mental retardation “retarded” is an acceptable use of the English word. It is short and it is precise. Calling some one with mental retardation “Intellectual Disabled,” “Mentally Challenged,” “Cognitively Special,” or whatever is convoluted, confounded, and a pure waste.
My objection to PC speech goes far beyond the use of retard. I’ve always related PC speech with Orwellian Newspeak. In essence, attempting to change attitudes and beliefs by changing and restricting the use of certain words. I think it is awfully funny that some people want to change the name of sports teams like the Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians because it might reflect badly on the American Indian population. Or over the now lost battle of the generic use of “he.” And I still often smirk when African-American is used in place of black.
You seem to imply that Republicans are on the six year old level. :rolleyes: Oh how charmingly pro-Democratic!
I did marry someone whose uncle is profoundly retarded with the mental capacity of five or six. (He must be a Republican!) I can safely say that my opinion of the retarded has nose-dived since I met him. There is an undefined quality to humanity, call it soul or spirit or mindfulness, that goes beyond the flesh born of man and women and this retarded man does not have it. He is an empty sack of flesh. He loves watching TV and eating which are the only things he seems capable of as far as I can tell besides soiling himself. But I guess that is good enough for some people. A thoughtful person, i.e. a person that uses thought and reason to make decisions and not wishy-washy emotionality, would conclude that he has little or no value as a member of humanity and has more akin with the animals. The comparison to animals really isn’t fair to animals, though. A better analogy would be to say that retards have the a similar relationship to humanity as an aborted fetus to humanity: development stopped before completion. I suppose such an unusual view makes me a cruel, insensitive, heartless, creepy bastard. So be it.
I found a Straight Dope Archive that basicly says there is no answer at this time: ”Jewish scholars often use the abbreviations BCE, before the common era, and CE, common era, and some archaeologists have begun doing so as well, occasionally translating CE as “Christian era.” Whether this is done out of a desire to use a more secular term or punctiliousness over the fact that Christ wasn’t actually born in 1 AD I dunno….”
Perhaps this should be its own Great Debate Thread.
Sorry about the double post. Moderators can freely delete or admonish.
Back in 1955, when I studied for a Bar Mitzvah, the Temple used “BCE.” I always assumed that their purpose was to avoid the word “Christ,” or even an abbreviation thereof.
Your last sentence should be modified to say, “Only retards ** and Rabbis** would fall for it.”
Words’ meanings have evolved over time. To deny this is to piss into the wind. “Retard” is now an insult, whether you like what teenagers have done to it or not.
I felt differently about this before I met my sister-in-law.
The OP was about using the term pejoratively towards non-disabled people. And IMHO the term ‘retarded’ is quickly moving towards the realm of insult and away from medical terminology, much as the term ‘moron’ already has.
“Mentally disabled” has the same number of letters as “mentally retarded”. So there.
So you’ve read “Politics and the English Language”, perhaps I have underestimated your intellect. I am alarmed and aware of the dangers posed by that essay, as well, but I have to point out a fundamental difference. Orwell was writing about the power of law to change and corrupt language. What I’m talking about is more in the realm of “Miss Manners”, whereby I’m at least free to register my disapproval of language that offends me. I do still have that, don’t I?
You seem to be angry at the fact that if you call someone a retard, people will think of you as some immature teenager. And this is what I mean when I talk of the hysterical anti-PC crowd, railing against the loss of their “freedom”. Horseshit. It’s the same kind of freedom as calling your grandmother a whore in front of the entire country club: there’s no laws against it, but I’d hate to be a person who could ever say thay have done that.
You should probably cultivate a thicker skin and not let name calling roll your undies in a bundle. Neener neener neener.
It really is shameful how they can’t hold down jobs and go to school like normal people, isn’t it?
It’s good to know I don’t waste insults on people who don’t deserve them. At this point I’ll step out of the way and let others have their fun with you.
Yet another PC debate!?!
It seems to me that the reasonable answer is to avoid using terms
[list=A]
[li]when the general consensus in your society deems that the word is an insult;[/li][li]when you know that the person that you are addressing considers it an insult, if you want to avoid offending that person. Which in my mind is polite behaviour.[/li][/list]
Just because I have a friend that doesn’t mind being called ‘shit-for-brains’ doesn’t mean that I should go around calling everyone ‘shit-for-brains’.
Even if I grew up using the word “retarded”, if the general consensus is that the word is insulting, then I should avoid it. Why do people have such an affection for words that are considered insulting? I found such a strong opposition to changing your vocabulary somewhat disconcerting.
Or, to phrase my question for the “anti-PC” crowd, are there any words that are considered insulting and should be avoided?
No one challenged me on it, but I have to apologize for this statement. The movement is to change the term client to consumer. On this, I believe that ‘Client’ is far more descriptive and meaningful.
On the subject of ‘Mental Retardation’, however, I still believe that this is the best term, simply because it is the clinical definition.
Politically correct or not, the intent of the speaker in describing the Ramones as four retarded guys was to convey an insult. People judge the quality of another person by their intelligence, if they feel that their own intelligence gives them an advantage. Cretin was originally a word meaning “Christian” used to refer to mentally retarded people. It was chosen to include a connotation of love, and compassion. For those who felt love and compassion, it was unnecessary, for those without it was ineffective.
Changing the jargon is pointless, but those knee-jerk goody goodies keep trying to find ways of talking about people without including insulting names in the description. Fortunately, small minded jerks with a driving need to feel superior to some damn body always have the option of using the new words to express the same cruelties.
Cripple, lame, blind, crazy, fat, stupid, ugly, and mean, if you live on your need to hate people, you live in a world that has hate as its center. Politically correct terminology won’t disguise the fact that you don’t need to insult people unless you are not quite sure of yourself. While it might not be incorrect to refer to a handicapped retarded person as a crippled moron, inaccuracy was not the major failing of the sentiment.
Tris
“You unpatriotic, rotten, doctor, commie, rat.” Bob Dylan
Words that are actively changed because a group of people don’t like that context can’t be said to evolved over time. I’d call that manipulation. PC speech, in general, doesn’t let words evolve, it attempts to determine what may be insulting and substitute a new word or phrase.
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The OP was about censoring words because some one might find the use offensive. Now Henry Rollins and the Romones are about as low brow as you can get, but I have to object the bleeping of “retarded.” The same philosophy is used by some people who want to ban Huckleberry Finn for the use of “nigger.”
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I never espoused or endorsed the use of “Mentally Disabled.”
You mean I should be worried about what Miss Manners thinks of me? Can you please shoot me first. Doesn’t anyone here own a gun?
You have every right to register your disapproval as I do mine.
Actually, I said it was awfully funny. As in funny ha ha. But I guess that means I’m angry in New Age Liberal Psychology. You also seem to be under the misconception that I usually go around calling people and things retarded when they’re not retarded. I said offense should not be taken by the misuse of “retarded.” I hate to repeat myself, but I guess some people don’t get it the first time around.
Well, I’ll tell you what. If you show me evidence that you’re grandmother was a whore and tell me your country club, I’ll be happy to call your grandmother a whore there. If you show me evidence that your grandmother was a rocket scientist I’ll be equally happy to call that. (I reserve that right to decline calling your grandmother a name if it involves more that two hours travel time.)
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Ouch! A witty riposte on my quip. I’m going to cry! Mommy, Airblairxxx hurt me. Wa wa wa.
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Do I sense a touch of sarcasm? It may be true that some can hold down jobs and go to school, but some can not. Some just sit on their rear end day all day.
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I’m glad you’re consistent. I seem to recall that Dodge Ball is now a improper activity.
Oy vey! I forgot about the Rabbis. You should have sent me a wally.
Hi Urban1 – even the clinical definitions change over time… or under pressure from PC (or whatever).
Mental Retardation isn’t used as a clinial diagnosis here in New Zealand anymore – although it was historically, and many of the clients of the health service my wife works for have MR as the medical definition of their condition.
(They also have old files with medical diagnoses of *Moron, Idiot, *and the like. None of which are any longer in use).
The current term in favour here appears to be Developmental Delay, further defined by Intellectual, Physical, etc. If the person is generally/universally disabled, the diagnosis is Global Developmental Delay. How that is better as a term than retarded/retardation… I dunno. But the reason in this case is almost certainly the perceived pejorative nature of the older term.
Oh…I doubt Henry Rollins was trying to insult the Ramones when he characterized them as “retarded”. I imagine he was admiring the genius of the Ramones…throwing away absolutely everything except pure rock and roll. You don’t need good looks, you don’t need good playing, you don’t need good singing, you don’t need good instruments, you don’t need good songs. The Ramones proved it.
I meant to mention that the ICD-9 CM is (still) used in the US and ICD-10 is used in most of the rest of the world. I don’t have it (10) available to me so I’m not sure what the new clinical definition is.
I’m confining my arguments to the word “retarded” as an insult. The debate over PC speech has too many aspects for all to be properly discussed in this thread.
And the OP was about VH1 bleeping out the word. Not a governmental fiat, not a horde of various minorities with pitchforks and flames and grievances, but about a fluffy little cable channel deciding not to let that word be broadcast over its airwaves. That is a distinction that you studiously ignore. If we were to talk about government banning certain words, I’d be the first on the protest lines.
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I’m glad you’re able to mention TOTALLY IRRELEVANT factoids. Now go play out in the street.
Did I claim PC speech was a Government fiat? You seem to studiously ignore what I actually say.
However much you’d like to confine your arguments to the word “retarded” as an insult, VH1 bleeped it because the Rollin’s use was deemed to be “insulting” under the PC criterion. The fluffy little cable channel didn’t want to risk insulting people like you who go gaga when a word is used in a certain way. You go gaga when someone uses “retarded” as an insult, some people go gaga when they see a character called a nigger.
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Let me guess. You’re dense enough that light bends around you.
The Dodge Ball reference was a jab at your dodging a point and declining to refute it. Now go play in a brothel without a condom.
I havent read many of the past postings, so if this was addressed, forgive me.
If retarded is such a bad word, and if, as one other person said, clinical definitions are changed over time, how will we change musical terms? The word Retardando (sorry if I spelled that wrong) means “slow.” (play slowly_ Shall we remove this word as well in the name of Political Correctness?
“Eschew Obfuscation.”
It is not uncommon to scan the postings of very intelligent adults in the Pit and even elsewhere on the board, referring to others as morons or idiots or other attempts at insult at the expense of those who are not as intellectually gifted. Many of the aforementioned assholes are the first in line to tow a politically correct line. As far as I’m concerned, a persons value to this society has nothing to do with their IQ.
People who let once proper and now derogatory words, such as “retarded” bother them either:
A) have too much time on their hands
B) too much pride
C) not enough real problems
Are you so easily manipulated by others that you let name-calling affect you that deeply? What makes it worse, is that What’s-his-name on VH1 didn’t use the word “retard” to put down the mentally handicapped - he used the word in its “new” slang definition… and you still found offense!
The only way I could see this issue being a problem is if someone was ridiculing a mentally handicapped person to their face, calling them “retarded” in a condescending way.
Man, it’s easy to get a rise out you pc’ers - what a collapsable world you live in. I would hate for the quality of my day to rest on the off-chance I’ll hear some teenager call his buddy a “retard” within earshot. Grow some skin, or at least grow up.
