I agree that one needs to look at “standards.” But beyond that, IMHO, to decide whether conduct is rude, you need to look at the costs, the benefits, and the availability of more polite alternatives.
In the case of door-to-door sales, the benefits are small. The costs are high if you factor in the amount of annoyance caused. And there exist more polite alternatives, such as sending mailers to people asking them if they would like a sales visit.
To expand upon your cancer example, let’s suppose you ask 100 people how their dad is fighting cancer, knowing full well that approximately 90 of those people just had their fathers die, but not knowing in advance which 90 it is. Will you concede that your entire course of conduct is rude?
Yes, of course. Chances are you’re going to make someone uncomfortable. It’s like the pinching a girl example or asking someone’s age/salary. You might luck out one or twice, but sooner or later…
Now, move that number to 10%, or even 25% or 50%. Is it rude then? Well, we’re in shades of grey. What we’re arguing about then is what is that percentage.
What I take issue with, and what my other posts have been spiraling toward, is the issue that “everyone hates telemarketers.” If everyone hates them, then why are they so effective? It takes money to do d2d - transportation, manpower, and logistics. Mailing adverts are much cheaper - pieces of paper don’t earn commission, and you can fit much more of them in a car. If everyone hates d2d, then the payoff can’t be too large. So, why do they bother?
I’m also going by my personal experience - when I knocked on doors, most people were nice, friendly, and at least willing to hear me out. Many people signed the petition and/or donated. On average, 25% - 33% signed the petition, and that’s including doors where people weren’t home, and doors where people listened and refused to sign due to political differences.
Possibly. Some people in this thread hold the opinion that ‘knocking on someone’s door to sell them stuff is rude.’ (It is only some of the respondents gazpacho - Jonmarzie isn’t alone in his position in this thread). I simply don’t see how that’s so rude. Some individual salesmen can be rude, yes, but that doesn’t seem to be the point here - the point is that, in some people’s opinion, it doesn’t matter how polite the salesman is, by knocking at your door he is already an asshole.
But no-one has yet said why. Really, why is that so rude? Is it intrusion on your territory? That’s the only reason I can think of.
But your front door is semi-public territory. If kids knock a ball in your front yard by accident, they come in and get it, but if it went through your window into your house they’d have to ask before climbing in; friends and neighbours come and knock on your door but they wouldn’t knock it down to gain entry, postmen walk up to the door to deliver mail,* all sorts of people come into this semi-public territory, including salesmen.
That’s why, lucwarm, I feel this analogy isn’t quite right:
A girl’s ass is a private part of the body, that (usually) only lovers are allowed to touch. Her hands, however, while still part of her own body, are constantly in ‘public’ use. If someone unexpectedly touched her hands then for some women that might be an invasion of personal space, while for others it would be no big deal, and it’s not automatically rude.
Riboflavin:
Lying? But you just admitted that you have called me an asshole. So how was I lying?
I wasn’t whining, I simply pointed out your error.
I don’t expect you to track the gender of every poster. However, if you are attempting to argue with me and pick my posts apart then I would expect you to have actually read them. The fact that you missed my gender - and my screen-name - indicates that you haven’t actually paid much attention to what I’ve said at all. If you’re going to try to rip into someone and hurl invectives at them, then you should at least know who the hell you’re talking to.
Yes, I said that when explaining why I had missed the sign on a couple of occasions. Missing a small sign in the dark is not laziness. I also explicitly said that I would not intentionally knock on a door with a no soliciting sign:
Are all your phone numbers public in the US then? We have the option to be ex-directory over here, which most people take up.
AerynSun (funny, I had that screen-name once upon a time too :)): I stand corrected, at least in that state. It does depend how clear the sign was though, by your own admission.
Soup-du-Jour:
Yeah, that’s true. I certainly hope they’re not as rude as they are in this thread, anyway!
#1. Soliciting for charities and/or political campaigns is slightly different from straight door to door soliciting. I believe that’s why charities and political campaigns are exempt from the “do not call” list. That’s also probably why you didn’t get as many rejections.
#2. I also think that a good percentage of your “sales” came from people who are either like myself, and have a very difficult time saying no, or from people that like to give to good causes (also like myself, but different than people who would buy something not attached to a charity) or people who just want you to go away and realize that the quickest way to do it is either sign the damn petition or give you 5 bucks.
Point is, all of those reasons doesn’t make the initial act any less rude. It actually makes it more rude when you consider the fact that a good portion of your “sales” are a result of covert guilt trips.
Are you kidding me with this? There have been quite a few posts containing explanations about why exactly this behavior is inherently rude. And you’re accusing Ribo of not paying attention? No wonder the only “decent” job you could get at 16 was door to door soliciting…
Well, lezlers, some people have said why they don’t want cold callers - they know where to go if they want to buy something, they don’t want to come to the door for no reason, etc. Those make sense. But of those who have said that the job itself is rude or assholery, they haven’t given a reason because they think it’s a truism.
Possibly, but in the case of telemarketing, there’s no need to quibble over shades of grey – well over 90% of telemarketing calls are unwelcome. If you disagree, you might ask yourself why telemarketers invariably block caller ID.
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They are effective for various reasons discussed by other posters, but there’s no need to discuss those reasons. See, you are attacking a straw man. My point is that door-to-door salesmen, telemarketers, and the like, are annoying to a high enough percentage of people that the conduct is rude.
And by the way, you should NOT assume that your conduct is welcome just because people make a donation or buy the product.
I do not think that coming to the door = disrupting your life. There we will have to agree to disagree.
Your other argument merits more consideration: the ways d-2-d sales works is to guilt-trip people into buying something because they don’t want to reject a person. However, that’s not the way d-2-d sales works. Do you really think there are so many people who could be so easily gulled? Do you really think lots of people buy double glazing because they didn’t want the man on their doorstep to feel bad? Guilt might make you buy cookies from the girl scout - it’s hardly enough to persuade you spend thousands on new windows.
In any case, if you felt bad about rejecting a person, why would being additionally rude to them make you feel better?
Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t make me stupid. And no, before you jump in, there isn’t anything else in this thread which would demonstrate my lack of intelligence either.
I realise this is the pit, but I have not personally insulted any of you. I am simply arguing from a different POV. The invective hurled against me here is well over the top. It is quite ironic that those who are complaining about ‘rudeness’ and ‘assholery’ are the very ones who are being the rudest in this thread.
So let me get this straight. For my rudeness, the three reason you’re citing are:
You can’t say no.
The people want the services (some people like to give to a good cause and have the means to do so, and here I am asking for support for a good cause).
People think the quickest way to get rid of you is to buy the services / product.
In reverse order, then.
3. The quickest way to get rid of me is say, “I’m not interested.” Or “fuck off.” Or “I don’t sign stuff from door to door people, but you can leave something.” Or “No.” Or variations thereof - trust me, I’ve heard many of them. I don’t know what fantasy universe you live in where time warps routinely change the speed of sound and your bank account is limited only by the number of checks in your checkbook, but it is much quicker and cheaper to say a few words than go through the trouble of having to actually read the fine print, sign something, get a checkbook, and write a check.
Actually, that’s the second quickest way to get rid of me. The quickest is to hang a sign and be done with the whole mess. Unless your fantasy universe also alters the speed of light.
You are saying that I’m being rude because I’m offering services to someone who’s interested in said services. I guess I’m also rude to offer to proofread someone’s article and help with their computer problems when they’re ready to throw the mouse at the monitor. I took my car to get my oil changed, and the guy had the nerve to change the oil. Who’d’ve guessed civilization would fall so far.
Grow a fuckin’ spine. Your inability to interact is frankly not my problem. Dealing with people is part of life, and your deficiency, while tragic, is not cause to call other people “rude.” There’s plenty of “it’s rude/immoral/wrong because I can’t deal with it” attitudes out there, and I’d hate to think you’re contributing to it.
Seriously, though, how do you define rude? What constitues rude? I’m not saying that telemarketers can’t be rude - many of them are pushy, don’t leave, mislead or lie, knock on doors that say “no soliciting” because they think they’re easy marks, etc. etc. I wasn’t one of them, and those people were one of the reasons I left the business. What I’m saying is I’ve canvassed for political issues I believe in, and I shouldn’t feel guilty because of it.
Gah. It’s been explained again and again. And not all intrusions are equally rude.
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Ok, what if somebody knocks on your door every hour on the hour for a week? Will you agree that that is rude? Of course it is. And the reason is that the annoyance to you far outweighs any potential benefits. Door-to-door sales are less extreme, but are rude for the same reason.
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I’ll defer argument over the butt-pinching example since your own example seems sufficiently illustrative:
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Ok, so let’s suppose I walked through the subway, politely going from woman to woman, touching hands without warning and without asking permission. And let’s suppose that after 20 girls or so, some guy yells “Hey keep away from my girl you f*cking creep!” Do I have any (moral) right to complain that this guy is being rude to me?
It’s not the knocking on the door that is disruptive. It’s the knocking on the door to peddle something I do not want nor do I need, or I would’ve gone out and purchased it already from a reputable source that is disruptive. But whatever.
Why thank you, I’m honored.
I agree completely. Hey, that’s a first! Oh wait, you were just repeating a statment I made in a previous post. That explains it. Okay then…
Really. Well then maybe you could explain to me why businesses continue to utilize this method of advertising since mail, tv and internet advertising could save them a lot of money.
Yes. Yes I do.
Okay, obviously we’re talking about different types of door to door salespeople. I’ve never had anyone try to peddle aluminum siding or windows to me. I’ve only been privy to the magazine sales and political signatures and such. So obviously the guilt thing isn’t relevent in your particular case. I’ll concede the point with you (not with the other solicitor, who I’ll answer when i’m done here). As for your other point, I never said I was rude to d2d solicitors, I only claimed that the act was rude. I’m actually a big sucker and usually give to the charities who come knocking on my door. I’ve also been known to invite them in and give them something cool to drink. Of course, I would never offer a straight solicitor that. Only charities. At least they’re doing it for a good cause. But I digress…
No, I called you stupid (in a roundabout way) because you asked a question that has been discussed in depth for 4 pages now (3 when you asked the question). Numerous posters have explained at length what is rude about d2d soliciting. Then you have to gall to sit there all innocent asking “but, but why is it rude??” That is why I called you stupid. Is that the same dumb act you put on when you claim you didn’t see the “no soliciting” sign? (I believed you before but after you asked that ridiculous question I’ve come to the conclusion that you either use that innocent act in order to get away with things or you really are, just that stupid.
Sweetie, you came into a thread that was obviously anti anti anti d2d soliciting and attempted to defend it. What the hell did you expect? Hate the sin, love the sinner isn’t exactly protocol around here. Especially when the sinner vehemently defends the sin. Surely you aren’t that naiive?
Um. While I appreciate your spin, that’s not at all what I said. I didn’t say d2d soliciting was rude because I can’t say no. I said it was rude because it does depend to some extent on people’s inabilities to say no. That’s just common sense. Who wants to say no to the bright eyed, bushy tailed political canvasser? Or to the cute little junior high school girl with just one more subscription to sell? If the actual interaction wasn’t necessary (and the pushing, no matter how ‘gentle’ canvassers like to say it is) wasn’t necessary, these organizations would do fine with bulk mailings and telephone solicitations. As for “my” #2. of course that’s not a reason for rudeness. How could it be? I don’t know where you got that was part of rudness. As for #3. Yes. I’ve found that writing a check or signing a petition is often quicker than saying “no” 18 times while being cornered in the grocery store parking lot (a bill petition) or trying to get to my next class (the greenpeace guy who kept up my very brisk walking pace and wouldn’t go away, the 17 different magazine “salespeople” that come knocking on my door (which I’ve never gotten anything from) or the Christian kid hawking stupid foil puppy pictures that wouldn’t leave my office (I was the only one there, not like I could call security).
Uh, okay.
If only it were that easy. Observe the greenpeace guy I mentioned above or the damn Christian kid who wouldn’t leave my office (“it’s a really good cause, it’s a really good cause, it’s a really good cause!” was ringing through my head for the rest of the day)
Isn’t that what you precious little d2d salespeople are complaining about? People being rude? Make up your damn mind.
Right. If only it were that easy. Look buddy, I did phone canvassing for a very short while. We only called members. I still felt like scum. I think I lasted a couple weeks. Canvassers are taught not to take no for an answer. You cannot honestly sit there and tell me that all canvassers will simply say “okay” and walk away when someone says to leave something or “not interested.” If you do, you’re straight lying. Canvassers are trained to push for the contribution, right there and then. And 90% of them will push for it.
No fantasy world, just the real one. Where canvassers and solicitors don’t simply throw up their arms and say “oh well” when you tell them no.
Always thought “no soliciting” signs were exempt from charity solicitations. Maybe that’s just telemarkers. I know they’re exempt from religious witnessers.
[QUOTE] 2. You are saying that I’m being rude because I’m offering services to someone who’s interested in said services.
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Stop right there. I NEVER said that. The whole point of d2d soliciting being rude is that the services have not been asked for. You’re making shit up now. Unless I called you up and asked you to come by to peddle your magazines, I am not interested in your services.
You’re really stretching now. Those examples are not at all analagous, and you know it. That’s weak. Really weak.
Well, fuck you too. Like I said before, door to door canvassing and soliciting depends on people that have a hard time saying no. That’s the only reason it still exists. Bulk mailing and phone soliciation/canvassing is far cheaper but less effective because people aren’t forced into an uncomforatable situation where they are forced to be rude. And I say forced to be rude based on about 90% of my canvassing/solicitation experiences. I deal with people every damn day, fortunately, few of them come barging into my office uninvited to try to sell me crap or come knocking on my door at home trying to sell me crap. That’s why it’s rude. These people are coming into my place of business and my private residence and trying to sell me shit. The only deficiency here is yours, for failing to comprehend basic social ettiquite.
You just answered your own question. The “many” telemarketers and d2d solitors you mentioned? THEY ARE RUDE. That’s where most people derive their opinions about d2d salespeople and telemarketers. Those people are the ones who make the whole industry rude. While I applaud your political convictions, it doesn’t excuse you from being a part of a industry that as a whole, is based on being rude. Knocking on people’s doors and begging them for money is rude. Cornering people in parking lots is rude. Matching the pace of someone who is briskly walking to class and walking to class with them is rude. There are other ways. Trust me, I’ve sought them out.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner! (And way back on page one, even.) Give that little lady a kewpie doll!
Answering what you perceive as rudeness with unquestioned rudeness only makes the world an uglier place. It doesn’t vindicate you, make you the better person or make you right. In fact, it makes you a jerk – the guy at the door doesn’t know if he’s bothering you when he rings your bell, but you know full well that your intent, when you scream and swear and slam the door is to be mean and nasty. There’s nothing righteous about that particular manifestation of your indigation.
I’m not suggesting that anyone is obligated by the dictates of decency to listen to anyone’s full spiel. I’m saying that there is nothing lost in simply saying “I’m not interested.” and shutting (not slamming) the door and walking away. I’m saying that there’s no reason why you should open your door to a stranger in the first place, which saves your oh-so-precious time and prevents a confrontation in the first place.
It’s depressing, really, how many Dopers are so willing to vent their spleens freely on these people who they don’t know, don’t care to know and claim to find inconsequential in their lives.
Uh, no. You have a nice way of stretching the definitions of rude, lucwarm, but the reason why THIS particular example would be rude is because anyone who engaged in that behavior would be doing so for no other reason except bothing you. It’s not about annoyance or benefits, it’s about the fact that behavior crosses the line from legitimate to illegitimate.
That argument isn’t on point at all. First of all, we have that whole legitimate/illegitimate behavior hurdle which this one cannot try to cross even with a boost. (To be clear: priest touching women in a row to give them a blessing = legitimate. Creep touching strangers on a subway = illegitimate.) Plus, you’re trying to suggest that the guy is reacting to your interaction with his girlfriend, but in actuality, he’s reacting to your actions in the aggregate. (He’s watched you touching 20 girls in a row, after all.) To be a reasonable analogy, you’d have to be claiming that a homeowner would have a right to respond to a salesperson not just for knocking on his door, but for knocking on the neighbor’s doors first. That makes zero sense.
Anyway you slice the “it’s rude/no it’s not” argument, I still don’t buy the “horrible intrustion” argument because it’s the solicitee not the solicitor who makes the decision to answer the door. If your time is so truly limited and precious or you really are doing something more pressing than watching Dr. Phil, why are you opening the door to a stranger, anyway? Whatever happened to calling “Who is it?” through the door and choosing your next move after the response?
Perhaps my different point of view is partly due to cultural differences then. The most common type of d-2-d salesman in the UK is the double-glazing salesman. I’ve never seen anyone peddle magazines that way.
As I said, most d-2-d sales over here is double glazing, and that’s the only field I claim to have any knowledge of. For those companies d-2-d canvassing is a very cost-effective method of advertising because you only go to houses where you can see that they don’t have double glazing already, and are privately owned (as opposed to council or housing association), plus you can give the householder an instant on-the-spot estimate.
Mailshots are usually part of the d-2-d method too - if no-one answers, you drop a mailshot through their letterbox (which is in a way worse, since it’s usually a wste of paper). TV costs much too much and is too general - it advertises across the whole country (or in the US, at least across the whole state). The internet probably has too high a time-waster quotient (people responding who don’t really have the means to buy the product), but I’m not certain of that, as I worked in this field before the internet. Basically, going d-2-d is the most effective way of advertising to the windows salesman’s target demographic.
Plus, it’s a business where at some point you have to send a salesman to the house anyway - d-2-d just gets to that point quicker. And the double glazing companies that go door-to-door genuinely are cheaper than the big firms that advertise, mostly because they don’t spend so much money on advertising.
There are a few unscrupulous bastards who persuade people to buy new windows when they can’t really afford them, but they’ve always been in a minority, and thankfully they’ve been better regulated over the last few years.
Possibly cultural differences also explain why a few of you find it unbelievable that on a couple (note, a couple, not lots) of occasions I missed the ‘no soliciting’ sign.
I don’t know where you place your signs in the US, but here they are generally at the door, sometimes near the doorbell and sometimes in the window if the door has one, and they’re nearly always handwritten. You are already at the door before you can see the sign, and even then sometimes you have to hunt for it. Or you might see a piece of paper in the window, but if it’s dark outside and there are lights on indoors then the writing is almost transparent and difficult to read.
Under those circumstances the odds are very good that a d-2-d salesman would miss the no soliciting sign at least once or twice - which is precisely what happened with me.
I did trawl back through all those dozens of posts, and like I said before, couldn’t find anything that answered that specific question, only people saying why they didn’t want salesmen - which isn’t quite the same thing. I probably should have phrased my question differently: ‘could someone clarify for me exactly why d-2-d sales is intrinsically rude.’ Which is what you did, so thanks.
Initially I didn’t defend it, I just outlined my own experiences and said that because of that I wouldn’t be rude to d-2-d salesmen. That was enough to get me called an asshole - and yes, I guess I was naieve not to expect that. I don’t find it necessary to sling names at people just because I disagree with them, and I’m still finding it hard to comprehend that others do. Guess I need to spend more time in the Pit and harden my skin!
That may be so, but THAT’s NOT THE POINT. The point is that (1) if you are rude to other people; and (2) they are rude back; then (3) you have no (moral) right to complain.
Why do folks keep ignoring this obvious point?
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That’s not necessarily true. Let’s suppose that the person who does it legitimately believes that he has a chance of making a sale. It’s still rude.
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Earlier, someone made the claim that such behaviour is “not automatically rude.” My example was based upon that assumption.
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I’m not suggesting anything of the sort. And I’ll modify my hypothetical to make that clear:
Ok, so let’s suppose I walked through the subway, politely going from woman to woman, touching hands without warning and without asking permission. And let’s suppose that after 20 girls or so, some guy, who has not witnessed my previous behaviour, yells “Hey keep away from my girl you f*cking creep!” Do I have any (moral) right to complain that this guy is being rude to me?
I must have misunderstood. You said that part of my “sales” (and, therefore, my rudeness) were:
Since my stint was to get people to contribute to good causes, please elaborate how I misinterpreted your response.
I’ve never followed anyone down a street, came to their office, or, if they’ve said no, continued to pester them. Yes, those folks are rude. I’m not arguing against that. What you are saying is the very profession of d2d is inherently rude, and that’s what I’m calling you on.
Please state where I said that it’s not OK to be rude to d2d. I’ll wait. It’s rude on your behalf, perhaps, but I’m using up your time.
Of course not. But you can’t honestly sit there and tell me that all canvassers will push and push and push (and be rude) until you write them a check or slam the door in their face. If you do, you’re straight lying. And I don’t know about you, but we were trained about the issues and sent to the wolves. Very few canvassers get much formal training, from my experience.
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Religious and non-political charities are usually exempt. Political organizations are a grey area - I’ve been told both ways. But, come on, if they have a no soliciting sign, there’s usually a reason. Perhaps they’re handicapped and have problems getting to the door. Perhaps they have a kid and the doorbell will wake them. I usually erred on the side of caution.
So your saying that my actions as a political canvasser mean nothing - it’s their actions that make me rude. Oh, that’s real empowering. Like I said in the beginning of this post, what I see is people basing their opinions of the entire profession on the actions of some (even many, even most). It’s like me having a bad experience with a waitress and saying “Damn, all waitresses are rude” or even “all waitresses at Denny’s are rude.” If you worked for Denny’s, how would you feel? That is why I’m pissed off.
Well then it appears that we are discussing different issues. While I still think d2d sales are instrinsically rude because you are soliciting something to someone who has not requested the solicitation nor has shown any interest in your particular product before you came knocking on their door, I’ll concede the point that for your particular area of sales, the tecnique may be more effective than mailing or internet advertising.
My above comments are the same to this.
Over here we’ve got actual metal plaques that say “no soliciting.” I don’t think I’ve ever seen a hand written “no solicting” sign, actually.
No problem, glad I could help.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Coming into a telemarketing or d2d thread and claiming that you either have done it and don’t regret it, or are currently doing it and asking why people think it’s rude is basically defending it, for all intents and purposes. I’ve noticed your tendency to rely heavily on semantic nitpicks in order to maintain/further your argument. I’ve always thought that was a sign of a weakness. If you’ve got to rely on those tactics to keep your head above water in an argument, you should probably look at your argument theoretically, instead of semantically. It might be easier to see where 95% of the posters in this thread are coming from.