Richard Carrier: a credible historian regarding rejecting Hitler's anti-Christian views being...

Richard Carrier: a credible historian regarding rejecting Hitler’s anti-Christian views being evidenced in Hitler’s Table Talk?

This is a continuation of this thread. What happened is I commented on a staff report on whether Hitler was a Christian. While the staff report didn’t say Hitler was a Christian, I noted how the report didn’t mention important evidence suggesting Hitler was not one: namely, that presented in Hitler’s Table Talk–a record of various statements by Hitler. Among them:

“The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light, and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.” p. 75

“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity.” p. 7

“Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.” p. 145

“The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.” p. 59

“It’s not desirable that the whole world of humanity should be stultified—and the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little. A movement like ours mustn’t let itself be drawn into metaphysical digressions. It must stick to the spirit of exact science.” p. 61

“When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.” pp. 59-69

I thus said it seems highly probable then that Hitler was not a Christian. So far the only historian mentioned in that thread to reject the legitimacy of these quotes was the atheist Richard Carrier, a man who (obviously) believes Christianity is false but has also devoted considerable effort in arguing against it. While atheists can certainly be good historians, Carrier has a history of promoting crackpot historical theories against Christianity; namely, (1) Jesus never existed; (2) the writers of the Gospels were not writing what they believed to be true but rather symbolic fiction. These are extreme fringe positions. I therefore questioned his historical judgment when he has an anti-Christian axe to grind, particularly if he is the only historian anyone can source who rejects Hitler’s anti-Christian views being evidenced in Hitler’s Table Talk.

That said, is Richard Carrier a credible source when it comes to this issue? (It was suggested by a moderator to take up the issue in a different thread, so here I am.) In the ancestor thread there seemed to be some debate over whether “Jesus never existed” really is a crackpot theory. Nearly all historians, Christian or not, accept that Jesus existed (source: Graham Stanton, The Gospels and Jesus (2nd ed.), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002) p. xxiii). Historian Michael Grant noted, “if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.” Bart Ehrman, himself a man opposed to the Christian faith (in a debate he argued against a prominent Christian philosopher over the resurrection of Jesus), said, “I don’t think there’s any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus. There are a lot of people who want to write sensational books and make a lot of money who say Jesus didn’t exist. But I don’t know any serious scholar who doubts the existence of Jesus.”

Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.

Does it matter if he was a Christian or not, in his heart of hearts? I mean, would it make the religion any better or worse? Would it make Hitler any better or worse?

I believe David Koresh called himself a Christian, as did several prolific serial killers.

Show us something wrong with Carrier’s actual methodology.

shrug

The communist leaders self-identified as atheists, but that doesn’t stop Dio, for instance, from declaring that communism counts as a religion, and therefore the communist purges are yet another reason to reject religion.

And, oh, what a surprise to see who is saying that those statements don’t count as anti-Christian. :rolleyes:

They don’t. Being a non-Christian is not the same thing as being anti-Christian. That’s ridiculous.

And Communism is absolutely a religion. It involves faith beliefs. Atheism does not. Atheism has no ideology.

ETA, I’ve never said that religion should be “rejected.” I’m all for religious freedom, have no desire to get rid of religion, and have never expressed any sentiments close to that. I don’t think religion is evil, I just reject the argument from Communism that atheism is evil. My wife is Catholic. My kids go to a Catholic school. I am not anti-religion. At all.

Seriously, Dio?

There’s this thing called a dictionary…you might want to look up the words in the phrase “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity” individually, then try reading for comprehension.

And, just for kicks, while you’re at it, see if you can find any dictionary, anywhere, that defines communism as a religion.

Not that I actually expect anything more than yet another blanket denial from you. After all, you’re an atheist, and therefore correct by definition. (At least, your definition…and that’s the only one that counts, right?)

“Communism” is nothing more than an economic theory. If communism is a religion, then so is capitalism.

If you mean “Stalinism” or “Maoism”, then those are political ideologies-- a form of totalitarianism. I can’t see how a political system can be called a religion unless it’s a theocracy. Even then, I’m not sure the political system is a religion just because it is based on a religion. Is “democracy” a religion? How about “monarchy”?

Communism is not religion. Its just an economical model at its core although Marxist analysis leeches onto virtually every possible thing.

HA LT!

Pick a debate, guys:

Hitler was/was not a Christian;

Carrier is/is not a legitimate historian;

Communism is/is not a religion;

other.

Any of those theses may be debated, but this thread is just going to be a huge train wreck if every second post is defending or attacking one of those positions.

Unpronounceable, your attacks on Dio are the basis of most of the confusion, here, so back off and start your own threads if you need to assert some point.

[ /Moderating ]

Hitler said that, not Carrier. You’re the one who needs to read for comprehension.

Find a dictionary definition of religion that can’t be applied to Communism.

I have no idea what you’re talking about, but your assertions that I’ve ever said Communism is a “reason to reject religion” is utterly false, as is any insinuation that I am anti-religious at all.

Carrier can be trusted to take the anti-Christian position on all issues, to make up “facts” whenever the actual facts don’t serve his needs, and to dismiss any source that he doesn’t like merely because he doesn’t like it. For example, he claims that the Spanish Inquisition killed “millions”. In reality, 2 to 3 thousand at most. I don’t doubt that anyone who subjected himself to his entire body of work would find many other such fabrications, but personally I have better things to do with my time.

I don’t want to belabor this because of the mod note, but to make two quick points -Stalinistic/Maoistic Communism are obviously what is meant when those ideologies are used to smear atheists, so it’s that’s just as obviously what I was referring to myself, and theistic belief is not a requirement for an ideology to be a religion. The kinds of Communism we’re talking about involve much broader, and myth-centered beliefs than just “totalitarianism” (which is not a belief at all, but a method). Communism (like Hitler’s Nazi-ism) contains characteristics of religion which I can extropolate on in another thread, but I’ll let it go for this one.

I notice you didn’t provide any cites for any of this, and as a matter of fact, none of it is true.

I’m not an historian, and I don’t have the expertise or resources to do a sufficient critique of Carrier’s claims (or even do a decent job verifying them). That said, he often seemed presumptuous. In the article he said, “The immediate and most important conclusion is that the Trevor-Roper edition, the only English version in print, is worthless.” This is a very strong claim, and though he referred vaguely to other evidence (he cited only a handful of specific inaccuracies), it’s unclear whether he is really warranted in making that kind of statement.

Thing is, Carrier’s claims might actually be true (at least to the extent that there are at least some inaccuracies). Unfortunately, for me Carrier is about the least reputable historian I know of to be making this sort of claim. Carrier’s put forth crackpot historical theories against Christianity, and here he’s putting forth an historical claim that helps grind is anti-Christian axe. It would be nice if we had something from Trevor-Roper saying, “Yep, I checked into it and Carrier is right” or the next edition of Hitler’s Table Talk saying, “This previous edition was based on a French translation that contained inaccuracies, this edition contains the translation from the original German.” Otherwise, if Carrier is the only historian who is making this claim, I’m skeptical.

Then you don’t really have a basis for accusing him of bad or unreliable scholarship.

OK, (1) I was speaking of the Hitler’s Table Talk issue, which we have little corroboration or anti-corroboration, and for which I do not have the expertise or resources to do a decent job verifying (e.g. I can’t read German); (2) the “Jesus never existed” doctrine (endorsed by Carrier) is indeed a crank historical view that contradicts much evidence not to mention a tsunami of mainstream support among historians; (3) the “Gospel writers were writing symbolic fiction rather than what they believed to be true” (also endorsed by Carrier) is likewise a crank hypothesis, and on this one I can look up contrary evidence for myself as well as see through his shallow arguments (e.g. his was an argument from coincidences that are plausibly genuine coincidences).

The fact that so far the only historian to deny the legitimacy of Hitler’s anti-Christian statements evidenced in Hitler’s Table Talk is an historian who promotes crackpot historical claims against Christianity and who has an anti-Christian axe to grind does, I think, give me some reason to be skeptical.

Carrier endorses no “doctrine” that Jesus didn’t exist. His position is that it’s “more probable than not” that Jesus didn’t exist. he is not doctrinaire and explicitly accepts the possibility that Jesus was historical. He just thinks it’s “less probable.”

I don’t know a damn thing about “Hitler’s Table Talk,” but I do know that he’s a responsible academic on Historical Jesus studies.

More specifically, he says it is “very probable Jesus never actually existed as a historical person.[emphasis his!]” That sounds like a pretty good endorsement to me.

Despite the fact that he is virtually alone among historians who think it’s likely Jesus never existed? Carrier’s position here is on the extreme fringes.

It’s a stated conclusion about probabilities. That doesn’t make it a doctrine. If he was doctrinaire, he would say that there is no possibility that Jesus existed.

He’s not alone. Have you ever heard of Richard Price? Burton Mack? G.A. Wells? Thomas L. Thompson?