[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Science does not “preach that there is no God.”
I realize that this lie is your most dearly held belief, but it is not true. If you continue to reapeat that claim in despite of the evidence that you have been shown on numerous previous occasions, I am going to be forced to conclude that you arer trolling.
If you wish to post that Many/most/some scientists preach that there is no God, that is fine. It is a supportable and accurate statement. If you repeat the lie that “science” (which actually makes no statement regarding any god) “preaches that there is no God” you are going to get Warned for trolling.
[ /Moderating ]
[/QUOTE]
OK, Tom I get the message, I wondered how long it would be in coming. Your entitled to your beliefs, but I am not entitled to mine.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
OK, Tom I get the message, I wondered how long it would be in coming. Your entitled to your beliefs, but I am not entitled to mine.
[/QUOTE]
We are not talking about beliefs. We are talking about behavior. You have repeatedly posted the false statement that “science” promotes a particular viewpoint regarding God. Whenever you do this, it provokes responses from other posters trying to demonstrate (with actual evidence–something you refuse to provide) that your statement is wrong. You continue to post the same factually incorrect statement with what I can only conclude is a deliberate attempt to troll the board and provoke a reaction. Given that it would require the keying of, at most, two additional words in any post where you feel the need to make your assertion, I see no reason to think that your method of posting is an accident.
Note that I am not attacking your “beliefs.” You have been posting lots of your beliefs for a couple of days, now, without garnering any attention from me–until you decided to re-post the lie on which you have been called on numerous past occasions. (I even let your nonsensical pretense that the Intelligent Design folks have ever provided any science to support their odd claims pass without comment.) Your broad science claim, however, is a much disproven lie and you will stop trolling with it.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Yes, I do want to change my beliefs to come ever closer to the truth of reality. That is why I read material opposed to my belief system. I can’t learn anything from those who think as I do. I keep hoping I will find some new data that will change what I believe and put one more piece into the puzzle of life. I believe what I believe through experience, reason and logic. Tough logic, brutal honesty, that often goes against my preferences. I post here because it sharpens my focus, and on occasion gives me new data.
[/QUOTE]
I see what you mean and I agree. If we realize there is much more to learn and are seeking we can assume our beliefs will change over time.
I think the original point was you told someone they could change their beliefs if they wanted to and the point made was, No it’s unlikely that an atheist could just decide to believe in god or a believer could just decide to not believe.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I see what you mean and I agree. If we realize there is much more to learn and are seeking we can assume our beliefs will change over time.
I think the original point was you told someone they could change their beliefs if they wanted to and the point made was, No it’s unlikely that an atheist could just decide to believe in god or a believer could just decide to not believe.
[/QUOTE]
It happens all the time. I get a lot of emails on that subject. Atheists that just had a near death experience and becomes a Theist. Likewise, Theists who have a really bad thing happen in their lives and denounce God. I can’t tell you how many, but I suspect it happens on a daily basis. People change their beliefs about smaller stuff with even greater frequency. It is the natural process of learning and growing.
Look, I can’t post here anymore without constant harrassment. Theists are not welcome on this board. Check around and see for yourself, so if you really want to continue this, lets do it on my board. It’s new, and small, but fair.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
We are not talking about beliefs. We are talking about behavior. You have repeatedly posted the false statement that “science” promotes a particular viewpoint regarding God. Whenever you do this, it provokes responses from other posters trying to demonstrate (with actual evidence–something you refuse to provide) that your statement is wrong.
[/QUOTE]
Huh? People on this board are constantly posting unprovable and illogical statements as truth. They do it over and over again - from ‘religion causes wars’ to ‘Bush really didn’t know there were not WMDs’. How is this particular statement worthy of a mod warning when those others and the dozens (maybe hundreds) of others of their ilk stand unchallenged ? What makes this particular statement any more egregious than any of those others? Atheists constantly post that theists are ‘delusional’, ‘illogical’, and worse, yet they remain on the boards.
So what is up with this? I’m trying to figure out how SDMB rules work and this is confusing me seriously.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
It happens all the time. I get a lot of emails on that subject. Atheists that just had a near death experience and becomes a Theist. Likewise, Theists who have a really bad thing happen in their lives and denounce God. I can’t tell you how many, but I suspect it happens on a daily basis. People change their beliefs about smaller stuff with even greater frequency. It is the natural process of learning and growing.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you get a lot of emails on that subject? Or are you referring to chain mails that are highly unreliable sources of data?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
It happens all the time. I get a lot of emails on that subject. Atheists that just had a near death experience and becomes a Theist. Likewise, Theists who have a really bad thing happen in their lives and denounce God. I can’t tell you how many, but I suspect it happens on a daily basis. People change their beliefs about smaller stuff with even greater frequency. It is the natural process of learning and growing.
Look, I can’t post here anymore without constant harrassment. Theists are not welcome on this board. Check around and see for yourself, so if you really want to continue this, lets do it on my board. It’s new, and small, but fair.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve know some incidents of that kind of thing happening . Thats a major event that sparked the change. I think your previous statement was read as someone just deciding on a normal day, without any major event or ongoing study, to change their beliefs.
Perhaps thats not what you meant but you did say someone could change their beliefs if they wanted to rather than someone might change their beliefs if X or Y happened. It may be just semantics but since we’re on a message board semantics matter a bit.
I’d be glad to check out your board if you want to email me a link. FTR I’m a theist and have been a member for quite some time, participated in many spiritual discussions and never felt harassed even by the hard line atheists.
[QUOTE=Anduril]
Why do you get a lot of emails on that subject? Or are you referring to chain mails that are highly unreliable sources of data?
[/QUOTE] lekatt maintains a web site based on his own experiences that have persuded him of near death experiences of the afterlife. It is quite probable that folks who encounter his web site will e-mail him with their own experiences.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Huh? People on this board are constantly posting unprovable and illogical statements as truth. They do it over and over again - from ‘religion causes wars’ to ‘Bush really didn’t know there were not WMDs’. How is this particular statement worthy of a mod warning when those others and the dozens (maybe hundreds) of others of their ilk stand unchallenged ? What makes this particular statement any more egregious than any of those others? Atheists constantly post that theists are ‘delusional’, ‘illogical’, and worse, yet they remain on the boards.
So what is up with this? I’m trying to figure out how SDMB rules work and this is confusing me seriously.
[/QUOTE]
Repeatedly posting pure opinions, brilliant or ridiculous, is just part of life on the SDMB. This particular issue involves a small set of assertions of fact for which this poster has been taken to task on numerous occasions in which substantial evidence has been provided that the claim is false, yet he chooses to repeat the claim for the purpose of stirring up other posters withoutr providing anyt evidence that he has any basis for that claim.
He is welcome to express his belief as a belief and he is welcome to provide those minimal qualifiers that provide enough wiggle room to remove the taint of lying from his claim. Since this issue has been dealt with in the past, he is no longer welcome to simply troll with his rather foolish claim without providing enough context to let other posters realize what he is doing.
Why am I quoting **lekatt’s ** post here? Well, i’m not. I’m quoting lekatt’s post there.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Depending on whose research you read: 80 to 94 percent of all people believe in God. It is true that many inherited those beliefs from their parents, but most think there is plenty of evidence that God exists. Miracles, visions, dreams, and experiences like out-of-body and near death experiences have convinced many of the existence of God. We look at our world and see the order and beauty of it. So there is plenty of evidence that God exists to believers. I realize that evidence is not good enough for science. But as for me I don’t care that science says there is no God, I experience God on a daily basis. I experience the Oneness of all things, the love and compassion of living in this physical life. To me that is plenty of evidence. I am sorry you can’t feel it or see it. Some religions call it enlightenment. Some conversion. But it is very real to those that experience it.
Helen Keller, blind and deaf as an infant. Her teacher could not communicate with her in any way. So the teacher would stick her hand into a bucket of water, then write the word WATER on the palm of her hand. Helen couldn’t make the connection between the water on her hand and the word written in her palm. For 18 months, every day, the teacher would allow her to experience water and then write the word water on the palm of her hand. Then one day is happened, she understood the connection between the experience of water and the word water written on her palm. For that point on her life change dramatically because she could communicate with her teacher.
That is what enlightenment is all about, one day it happens and you know who you are and what you are doing here. You can communicate with God. Science will never change that no matter how much it preaches there is no God.
[/QUOTE]
If people are indeed interested, here’s the link for their website. While I don’t agree with… pretty much anything they’ve written there, it is at least an interesting read.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Atheists constantly post that theists are ‘delusional’, ‘illogical’, and worse, yet they remain on the boards.
So what is up with this? I’m trying to figure out how SDMB rules work and this is confusing me seriously.
[/QUOTE]
Which atheist has consistently posted that theists are “delusional” or “illogical”? And please provide a link. I’m not sure any atheist has ever posted outright that theists are delusional or illogical without some form of a caveat.
[QUOTE=Anduril]
Which atheist has consistently posted that theists are “delusional” or “illogical”? And please provide a link. I’m not sure any atheist has ever posted outright that theists are delusional or illogical without some form of a caveat.
[/QUOTE]
To be fair, i’m pretty sure **Der Trihs ** has. But then he is not exactly in accordance with all the other atheists.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but i’ve never called theists delusional or illogical, though i’m sure i’ve called specific (non-poster) theists that, and other theists have often shared those sentiments.
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
Last night I had a dream that I could fly. It must be true that I can fly. It seemed very real.
[/QUOTE]
Jump off the tallest building within a 50 mile radius of where you live. Come back and tell us how it went. You do that – especially the posting part after the jump – and I’m going out for a Superman cape ASAP.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
To be fair, i’m pretty sure **Der Trihs ** has. But then he is not exactly in accordance with all the other atheists.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but i’ve never called theists delusional or illogical, though i’m sure i’ve called specific (non-poster) theists that, and other theists have often shared those sentiments.
[/QUOTE]
What Quiddity Glomfuster no doubt remembers is that when an atheist posts that religious beliefs are not based on evidence, some theists (a small number) escalate this into a claim that the atheists are saying all theists are delusional. There is a big difference from having even delusional beliefs and being delusional, and I think even **Der Trihs ** has made that distinction.
I for one find it highly amusing that lekatt seems to be implying that Tom is trying to drive theists from the SDMB. I’m going to have to send Tom the atheist starter kit.
I for one find it highly amusing that lekatt seems to be implying that Tom is trying to drive theists from the SDMB. I’m going to have to send Tom the atheist starter kit.
[/QUOTE]
What’s in that exactly? Have you recently added a copy of Dawkins book?
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
What’s in that exactly? Have you recently added a copy of Dawkins book?
[/QUOTE]
We hardly need that. The standard package includes an anti-rapture helmet, irony meter Mark 10, black helicopter signalling device, and door to door proselytizer early warning system, so you can get good and ready when that JW shows up at your house. We have recently added the War against Christmas flak jacket though, and our anti-Santa missile.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Yes, and the fact that the Sun rises (not really) everyday is evidence of intelligence. There is a great deal of evidence that points to the existence of God. The precise order of our Universe. Precise orbits of the planets, the cooperation of vegetation, and animals to balance life. The currents of the ocean and winds. All this implies intelligence, a director who put the systems in place and monitors them. Then there is millions of people who have spiritual experiences every day. There is not one society on earth that didn’t believe in an after life. The evidence is plentiful and abundant. Some of us have experienced God. There is research that shows consciousness continues after the death of the body. I could write a book of the evidence you can’t seem to find. But each to his own beliefs.
[/QUOTE]
How do you know it was God you experienced and not just your own inner need?What proof is there for an after life?
Religious experiences come from the inner person’s desires it can be self hypnosis or some other such as auto-suggestion.
Many people would swear that the sun spun around at Fatima, but Science can prove that it did not, nor did it come closer to earth.
Beliefs are based on what we desire,when we can know then it is no longer faith.
We can know there is a tree in our yard and that takes no faith.
Monavis
I think you guys are seriously milking the chimp in this thread now. I can hardly believe some of the illogical arguments that have been made in defense of religious faith here. “Lots of people believe, so it must be true,” “personal experience is proof of God’s existence” “everything has to have a cause and so God (apparently immune to this rule) must be the uncaused First Cause” and so forth. All of these arguments have been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked not only here but in many books and web sites. It’s all there, plain to see, and only true ignorance or deliberate defiance could account for someone continuing to adhere to such arguments for very long.
