Then I submit you aren’t listening carefully enough.
Well, yeah. It confirmed what I already said, that Warren equated pro-choicers with Holocaust deniers. What does that have to do with wondering if your Rabbi would feel any differently about Warren if Warren himself were a Holocaust denier?
I never said that. I was drawing comparisons with the general public’s apathy or ignorance toward an injustice. Ok, I suppose it sounded exactly like that, but I was going more for the…we’re better than that, we’ve evolved into a more caring society, aware of civil rights injustices in hindsight, looking back at the Native Americans, the Japanese-Americans, the blacks. Why is it we can see the injustice through the lens of history, and not fight it when it’s staring us in the fucking face, here, today? Now. Oh, but signs and donations are good enough. Taking Obama to task for giving a national platform to a hateful bigot is going too far.
See, that’s all I need to hear, and the rest is fuzzy noise.
And yeah, why are we being asked to tolerate bigotry? It makes no sense, in light of history.
Jeeez, I hate this. Shayna, I adore you. You and luci are among my favorite posters. I hate being on the wrong side of you guys. I’m not going to change your minds, and you’re not going to change mine, and I’d rather this stopped before it gets any nastier. I’m going to try to bow out. I’ve said just about everything I wanted to say, multiple times.
That’ll teach me to take so long composing a post before actually getting around to posting it. Perhaps it’s best we agree that we both hate Rick Warren, what he stands for and what he preaches, and agree to disagree that Barack Obama’s approach to Warren might be a good move or a bad move towards our common desire to see equal rights for everyone.
{{Hugs Equipoise}}
Ok, I see what you mean. Looking at it from that angle, I’m feeling actual scorn toward the Rabbi for taking Warren so lightly. I should have seen that before.
I’ve read what you said before. I’ve heard the same arguments in this thread many many many times. I’ve read blogs, articles, comments, all kinds of them elsewhere on the net. I understand your position as you see it. I just don’t see it that way. And by now, all I have to do is hear “support Obama’s inclusion of Warren in his inauguration” and I know we’re not going to find common ground on this. We can find common ground on hundreds of thousands of other issues, but not on this.
Yes, I’m listening (well, until very recently) and I disagree. We are being asked to tolerate bigotry. There’s no other way (for me) to interpret it. None of the arguments I’ve read and heard take into account the deep hurt and betrayal of millions of people,* who were already hurting*. Why does that not hit people in the gut, the soul, the fucking heart?
This is all very surreal. The lack of true empathy, in favor of a hateful bigot, is stunning.
I pit the 5 minute edit window and your speedy use of the reply button!! 
Pssst. . . look up.
Yeah, we were typing at the same time. Thanks.
I have a feeling Obama is going to have quite a few surprises up his sleeve for the next four years.
Of course. Ignore everything that you actually see and use your telepathic powers in determining Obama’s state of mind. Obama doesn’t have a long history of ACTIONS about gay rights. He has a history of backing off his campaign promises. He has a history of berating the left for their intolerance of evangelicals while reaching out to these homophobes. Expect it. GLBTs will be thrown under the bus. And everyone will forgive him because he is divine and because he will have a few surprises up his sleeve for the next four years.
Right now, Andy, I’m really hoping you’re not a Texan. Reassure me about that, won’t you?
Not a Texan. Not even American - Filipino, actually.(which would probably make some wonder why I’m so interested in American politics).
'luci has a long history here of belittling the idea of LGBT rights being as important as other matters while claiming he’s just as enlightened as the next guy as long as it’s not his kid being queer. Plus I’m not sure it’s wise to take advice on matters of rationality and practicality from someone who thinks there’s sufficient compelling evidence in favor of astrology. Just because the guy is sorta witty and sorta lefty sometimes doesn’t mean he’s smart.
Why do you have to do both, though? That’s the part I don’t understand. Why do you simply have to both hurt and hate? Why can’t you both hurt and forgive? How does the cycle ever end if nobody is willing to stop hating? And yes, I do know how hard it is. The worst thing about Indians hating the Indian Hater is that the hate is merely doubled. And compared to what Jackson has done to Indians, Rick Warren has been bathing gays in floral bath water and feeding them grapes. How would you feel if he confiscated your property, forced you from your homes, and made you fucking walk a thousand miles to a your new home in the desert? And to top it all off, you’re mad at fucking Barack Obama! His only sin, that you’ve called him out for, is asking the guy to say a fucking prayer which, if you’re Christian, is in line with Christ’s teachings and which, if you’re not, is meaningless anyway. You call yourselves progressives these days. But the fact is that you can’t make progess by keeping your feet stuck in a ditch. Tell you what, if I make a public personal absolution of Jackson, will you do the same for Warren? If so, I’m willing. If not, the person causing most of your hurt is yourself.
Naw, I’m still old-fashioned, I think the asshole doing the punching is the one causing the hurt. This “you ran into his fist” theory is cute though.
Yeah, well this “he punched me with his lips and teeth” theory is a real dinger as well.
It’s true – the ramblings of bigots have been reduced to mere words, their power to damage and destroy the lives of real people stripped away at last. There is no longer any need to be concerned when rich, powerful men espouse hatred and ignorance and are then endorsed and exalted by other powerful people. What a relief!
EE, if I’m not enlightened and lefty enough for you, you can kiss my ass till I bark like a fox.
Yeah, but I can’t marry you in the morning.
With all due respect, you’re as dense as a Quasar. You don’t end the hatred and ignorance of one man by compounding his hatred and ignorance with hatred and ignorance of your own. Do you have any idea why he sees things the way he does? Have you ever thought he might feel just as threatened as you do? Yeah, I know you’ll laugh or pooh-pooh the notion that his greviance is as genuine and worthy of examination as yours. After all, that’s the nature of, well, natural man, I guess. But if what you really want to do is end the hatred, then Obama is setting the example for what you need to do. If you prefer just licking wounds, then proceed. We all understand the point you’re making about how you’ve suffered and all that. Many of us have suffered from the prejudices and bigotry of others. Buy until we stop to take a look at their point of view, we’re just as ignorant of theirs as they are of ours. I do know that there are truly evil people out there, just bullies who want to hurt others. But that’s not always, and maybe not even usually, the case. Maybe it’s not the case with Rick Warren. Maybe by winning him over, you can advance your cause for justice by years or decades. But if you keep doing what you’re doing, you might just keep getting what you’re getting.
What do you mean by “hatred and ignorance” exactly? Objecting on a public message board to his presence at a national, historic event is hatred and ignorance? Explaining what his views really are and how they affect real people is hatred and ignorance? I guess insisting that if a guy runs you over with his car with the best intentions he’s still responsible for your injuries is hatred and ignorance?
By the way, I just jumped into this thread, and I’m an individual human being, so don’t go responding to me like I’m an emissary from the Gay Borg, please. I’m pretty sure half the other queers around here wouldn’t give me the time of day if the watch was strapped to Brad Pitt’s dick, so I don’t think they want to be taken as speaking for me, either.