This new Kabbalah craze with a lot of celebrities bothers me. First off they aren’t jewish, and have no intention of converting, but claim to be “kabbalahists”
I find all this silly as kabbalah, is basically a jew sect, or jewish mysticism. To me just because one kabbalist rabbi realized that he could turn the mystical properties of kabbalah into a marketing bananza that would be a money machine, does not make it acceptable or “real”.
I would like to know if others feel that this is wrong or at least incredibly silly and inappropriate on the part of celebs and other people seeking the next new age fix? If they aren’t jewish then they aren’t kabbalahists
I should note I am neither a jew or a kabbalahist.
Depends on how seriously you take religion, I suppose. New religions don’t have less validity for any reason I can think of. ::Insert obvious point about Jesus here.:: If the people buying into it think it’s real, I suppose it’s as real as any other religion.
Silly? Yeah, on its face it’s pretty goofy. Most people are accustomed to taking religion seriously, so the fact that these celebs are trying a new spirituality like they might try a new line of clothes or brand of coffee looks odd. Although maybe it’s not that odd. Even in non-proselytizing religions like Judaism, you can find people doing it ‘because it’s cool’ or ‘because other people are doing it,’ which is pretty much the same. It’s not wrong and I definitely don’t think it’s inappropriate. If it makes them look dumb, I’m fine with it. It doesn’t hurt anybody else. Even if they’re doing it for ridiculous reasons, I don’t think you need to say “they’re not Kabbalahists.” If they say they are, that’s good enough for me. They may be ignorant Kabbalahists, or underinformed, or dupes, or doing it for stupid reasons, but I don’t think those are the same thing.
During the Renaissance there was a trend among intellectuals known as
Christian Cabala. Its practitioners included Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, Cornelius Agrippa von Nettelheim, and Robert Fludd. Once when I had been reading about the history of magic in the Renaissance and mentioned it to a Jewish Kabbalist I was working with, I remember how he took offense at the phrase “Christian Cabala.” Like it or not, it is part of the intellectual history of Europe and helped to form part of the basis for the development of modern science. There have always been and always will be creative thinkers who color outside the lines.
Well real kabbalahists are jew, and are very intense about their faith, so they ARE quite insulted by these celebs pretending to be kabbalists, misunderstanding traditions and claiming to be kabbalists following 1000’s year old traditions.
I think you may misunderstand here, this is not a new religion but a sect of judaism that is 1000’s of years old. All kabbalists are jewish, it is that they are just a particular kind of jewish. Just like everyone else, right or wrong they have the right to have their beliefs respected.
To say that they are kabbalists just because they say so is erronous. If they don’t follow kabbalist rules then they aren’t kabbalists. That is like saying that if an atheist says “I am a christian” that they are suddenly christian because they say they are. They obviously aren’t if they are still atheist, as by definition christians believe in God, jesus, etc.
I say that they aren’t kabbalists as by definition they are not. If they don’t follow the rules of kabbalah, then they aren’t kabbalist If they want to prance around with string and perform sexy ancient rituals, then they SHOULD form their own religion, rather than claiming to be kabbalists. There is a distinction here.
The answer to why they haven’t is that it wouldn’t be as nearly sexy for them if they weren’t able to say that they were part of a religion that is thousands of years old. Well they simply can’t have it both ways.
There is nothing kabbalist about the things that they are doing, and the Rabbi is doing it all for a buck. It should also be noted that that kabbalah leaders have admonished the rabbi of the kabbalah center for this as well.
I respect celebs right to be or look as ridiculous as they wish, however to claim that they are kabbalists when they are not is truely ridiculous. I say that celebs should form their own religion and call it Celeballah . They can then prance around in strange ritual ceromonies and worship pieces of string. This way would be great for them too, as they can create funky rituals and do whatever they want.
Ok, first off lets not compare celebs to creative thinkers or intellectuals, as it is their need to follow something and do the “in” thing that started this to begin with.
There are several errors with your logic, first practioners of “christian cabala” didn’t consider themselves kabbalists. Not that what they did is much better, but it is certainly different. They simply stole certain aspects of kabbalah and put it into their traditions. Second, just because someone else did something stupid at some point in history doesn’t make it any more valid now. Everything has to happen for the first time at some point.
Well, it ain’t just celebs and there’s far more than one Rabbi teaching Qabala to non-Jews. Are you angry with them, or is the celebrity thing specifically what’s chapping your hide? There’s been a long-time serious study of Qabalah by Thelemites, Golden Dawn, O.T.O. and other Western Esoteric traditions. Not thousands of years old, but well over a century old - older than the Kabbalah Center and the current dude who runs it, anyway.
It’s widespread enough that in Esoteric circles, the various spellings of the word itself can often indicate which group of study you’re talking about: Kabbalah is usually, but not always, Jewish. Cabala is usually, but not always, Christian. Qabalah is usually, but not always, Thelemic/Golden Dawn derived. Any one of these, or other variations, can also refer to the study by eclectic neopagans or new age types.
For me, it doesn’t matter too much where wisdom is held. It’s far more important that the wisdom itself be shared and utilized, whether I have a foreskin (or penis) or not. I can tell we’re not likely to come to an agreement here, and I know from previous threads that I am in the minority on this point, but it really doesn’t bother or even affect me. So, for me, the answer to your question: Ridiculous?: Kabbalah and Celebs is no, it’s not ridiculous.
I’m also curious why you say you’re not a Jew or a Kabbalist, but you seem rather vehemently misinformed about what kabbalah is. It is not a sect or branch of Judaism the way Lutherns are a type of Christian. Rather, it is a branch of study which some, but not all, Jewish people choose to study. Since well back into the Dark Ages, it was not the private secret teachings of only the Jews - in fact, it likely would not have survived the Dark Ages without being protected by the Muslims, like much of non-Christian religious and philisophical information.
It is a system of understanding the universe which can be applied to all religions and all people, as well as all governments, all relationships and even all message boards.
If you’d like actual information on the system, check out The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford by Lon Milo DuQuette, which is a very funny and also very practical and accurate introduction to Qabalah for the beginner.
Michael Berg a noted Rabbi and teacher of the Kabbalah would disagree with the notion that you must be Jewish to learn the Kabbalah. He feels that God has opened the door for teaching Kabbalah to everyone. He is quite learned and has made the Kabbalah his life’s work, so I believe his oppinion counts. From his web site:
As to whether or not it is silly, that is for each person to decide. It is steeped in tradition and is no more or less silly than many of the other religious teachings of the world. For some, that means very silly indeed, and for others, not at all.
OK, let’s be clear on what Kabalah is. It’s a form of mysticism that arose in the 1200s (although some people claim it goes back to Temple times, 500 BC - 100 AD.) The main principle is that there are two realms: physical and spiritual. The Hebrew text of the Torah (Pentateuch) contains power and illumination, both straightforward and hidden (mystical.) Doing the mitzvot (commandments in Jewish Law), such as eating only kosher food, keeping the sabbath, etc, somehow helps unify the spiritual realm and the physical realm, and helps perfect the world.
Then there’s all kinds of elaboration on these basic premises. Some of it is complex and profound and zen-like, some of it is numerological and convoluted and rather silly.
Taking Kabbalah away from the mitzvot, however, is to rob it of its practical application and be left with a philosophical mush. Analogy: Imagine someone learning architecture and just learning aethetics, having no idea how to actually deal with things like support beams, blueprints, plumbing, or any of the practical side. Imagine someone taking a course in poetry, and only dealing with the great poetic themes, never mentioning words, rhyme, or meter. Imagine someone claiming a new brand of Christianity, and noting that Jesus turned water into wine, so saying that the only thing you have to do to be a neo-Christian is to drink lots of wine. It’s missing the whole point.
In short, this “Kabbalah for Idiots” or for celebrities is not much more than jazzed up relaxation (perhaps with a bit of meditation, although I wouldn’t swear to that.) It has nothing to do with Kabbalah.
'Course round about 50 A.D. christianity was basically a jewish sect. Paul realized he could make a lot of followers by selling it to the Gentiles. Was that incredably silly or inappropriate? Many of the original churches founders felt that if you weren’t Jewish (i.e. circumsised) then you weren’t a christian.
Religions in general schism and merge at an increadable rate throughout history. It’s no more inappropriate in this case then in anyother.
Some of your assertions are incorrect. Maybe you misunderstand what I say.
Actually that is basically what I said in my emails. It is a matter of semantics and I disagree with your assertion. If it is practiced by some jews, but not all, then kabbalish jews are a sect of judaism by definition. If you are implying that I said all jews believe in kabbalah, that obviously is not true, and I never said any such thing.
You are also greatly misinformed if you believe that kabbalah is only a only a century old. Written doctrine of Kabbalistic tradition goes back to the 1st century CE, but it is widely believe that oral tradition goes back much further, possibly to the time of Melchizedek. There is substantial literature of Jewish mysticism dating from the period 100ce - 1000ce that is part of traditional Kabbalah. The origins of the word Kabbalah can be traced to 12th. century Provence. The origin of the word “Kabbalah” as a label for the tradition which is definitely recognizable as Kabbalah is attributed by scolars to Isaac the Blind (about 1160-1236 C.E.). Before this time followers of Kabbalistic tradition were referred to by a variety of terms “masters of mystery”, “men of belief”, “masters of knowledge”, “those who know”, “those who know grace”, “children of faith”, etc but it clearly goes back to about the first century, if not much farther back.
Whether you realize it or not, Kabbalah is of jewish tradition and frankly I am suprised to hear someone claim that it is not. It should also be noted that Rabbi Berg, of the kabbalah center is a Jewish rabbi as well. Some aspects of Kabbalah are so deeply intertwined with Jewish religious beliefs and practice that they are meaningless outside of this content. Which is the root of the problem. To answer your question, that is where my problem arises with Rabbi Berg and The Kabbalah Center reside. My problem is with the bastardization of traditional religious beliefs into pop culture and new-agism for the sake of something trendy. It is rediculous and has no meaning. Honestly I hate it anytime anyone tries to make a “new” religion.
What you primarily are referring to in your email is only Qabalah, which is a small offshoot of traditional Kabbalah, and not the same thing. I take it that you are a follower of Qabalah?
While certainly there have been small offshoots over history that have used elements kabbalistic tradition, they were not, nor claimed to be Kabbalists, which you even essentially point out in your email. This is true of even most major religions. In comparision that doesn’t make some branch Davidian, a cultist or follower of Voodoo, into a Roman Catholic, just because they may share a small element of some similar belief that have their root in the same place as Catholism.
To bottom line MY issues here, it is primarily with Rabbi Berg and The Kabbalah Center. These celebs are not kabbalists, and it is even laughable as I have heard them discuss things and they don’t even get the information close to being right. They are simply picking a few trendy elements of kabbalah that look cool and are using the ceromonies and legends to create some sort of trend and appear “deep” or “spiritual”. They don’t even know what they are doing or what it is about. I think it is insulting to real Kabbalists (and so do they). My problem is with the bastardization of traditional religious beliefs into pop culture and new-agism for the sake of something trendy. It is ridiculous and has no meaning.
One can be christian, jew, or atheist and still apreciate this. Celebs can go play with their expensive string somewhere else. P.S. As a completely seperate note, for those that are interested to learn about Kabbalah read Kabbalah for Beginners by Rabbi Laitman
Well as Rabbi Berg is the one that is teaching the celebs at The Kabbalah Center, so it would be logical that he would promote this, as they aren’t Jewish and that would cut into his money.
He is at the root of the problem that we are discussing here
It think that you misunderstand my comment about it being a jewish sect. There is nothing wrong with Kabbalists. My point was that true kabbalists are jewish. I refer to them as a sect, as only some jews are Kabbalists. Sect may not be the correct word to use here, but I don’t see a more appropriate one and I was trying to distingish the fact that many jews are not kabbalists.
The problem isn’t with Kabbalists, it is that whatever these celebs are, they are certainly not kabbalists. They aren’t really following, nor do they understand kabbalah. It is simply a pop culture thing that is the next in thing. For this reason I find it silly and ridiculous
My apologies, I didn’t check the forum that this was posted in - my mistake. From the quote above I thought you were asking how others felt. I can tell you have already made up your mind - so I’ll leave you to your opinion.
I did not assert that Kabbalah is not Jewish in ORIGIN or that it is only 100 years old, I stated that it is not and has not been exclusively PRACTICED and STUDIED by Jews for well over a century.
In other words, the Kabbalah Center, Rabbi Berg and Madonna are merely following in a long line of non-Jewish studiers of the Kabbalah.
Yes, I’ve studied Qabalah through a Hermetic system for about 6 years. I am a raw beginner, and never proclaim myself “a Kabbalist, a quabbalahist” or any other spelling of the word. I am a student. I expect to remain a student until the day I die.
As has already been posted, you’re wrong about this. You say you’re not Jewish or someone who has studied Kaballah (I’m also neither), and your knowledge of both things seems suspect.
I’m not sure why the Rabbi’s motivation is a factor here. The list of people making religious claims and asking for money is enormous.
Well that’s big of you, but it’s not what they want to do. Which is why it’s not what they’re doing.
I’ll close with a quote from the Simpsons, that font of all wisdom: “This so-called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants, designed to take away the money of fools. Now let’s say the Lord’s Prayer 40 times, but first, let’s pass the collection plate.”
Except what they’re studying, and what “Rabbi” Berg is teaching isn’t Kabbalah. It takes Kabbalistic ideas and symbols and tries to universalize them. But Kabbalah isn’t universal. It’s a way of understanding the Torah, and as such, it’s an exclusive discipline. The Zohar is a uniquely Jewish work just like, for example, Ignatius Loyola’s “Spiritual Exercises” is a uniquely Catholic work. As a non-Catholic, there are parts I can use, but it wasn’t written for me, and a lot of it you have to be Catholic to really understand.
Please understand I’m not saying this to insult you. If you’ve found some sort of spiritual help out of what you’re studying, I’m glad for you. But your faith tradition, whatever it is, has its own mystical tradition. You’d do better to study that.
No. No more ridiculous than people born Catholic or other Christian who suddenly declare themselves Sikhs or Hindus or Muslim. No more ridiculous than people who have lived a life of depravity who suddenly declare themselves “saved” but do not practice even the one great commandment of jesus, to love one another as Jesus loved others…
In other words: It don’t mean nuthin’ – and in America you can’t do nuthin’ about it.
I believe you prove my point in your email, as you use a jewish smilely in your email when referring to kabbalah. Kabbalah is a Jewish tradition, if they aren’t jewish then they aren’t kabbalists. The issue is that the people that we are referring to are not kabbalists, they are just pretending to be, while only following a few legends and glitzy rituals with a complete lack of understanding of Kabbalah. That is the difference between them, and
I have no problem with real Kabbalists, only pretenders of any belief or religion which is only done for the pop culture value. That is the reason this bothers me.
Your comparison to people converting to Islam or Hinduism is inaccurate, because people do really convert to Islam or Hinduism and their beliefs. The same could be certainly true of a kabbalist, and if so, I have no problem with somone that converts to traditional kabbalah. It is pretenders that don’t even know the meaning of the rituals they are practicing,and only do it to do what is in. There is nothing religious or spiritual about this. I think that C K Dexter Haven put it best in his post earlier in the thread, what these people are doing really isn’t even Kabbalah.
I respectfully disagree with your implication that Kabbalah is not jewish however, as that to which you refer to is not Kabbalah, but rather various belief systems which have included some tenets based on some kabbalistic traditions. I find elements of Kabbalah intriguing, however I will never be a kabbalist, as I have no intention of ever converting to judaism. One website that can be visited for those that don’t won’t to buy a book but still learn about kabbalah free online without all the pop culture is here. As I previously said, and was also somewhat echoed by others in this thread, some aspects of Kabbalah are so deeply intertwined with Jewish religious beliefs and practice that they are meaningless outside of this context.
My issue lies with this trendy meaninglessness. Celebs have cherry picked a trendy 2% of legends and ceromonies from Kabbalah, taken away all the meaning, and have turned it into pop culture, pretending/claiming to be Kabbalists while breaking many of the most basic and sacred kabbalah tenets. That is what makes it silly- there is no belief or meaning behind what they do.
I find it silly every time celebs or pop culture highjack any religious belief system so that they can pretend to be “deep” or “spiritual” when they really have no clue what they are talking about. Kabbalah is just one currently popular example.
. They can then prance around in strange ritual ceromonies and worship pieces of string. This way would be great for them too, as they can create funky rituals and do whatever they want.