Right-wingers want gay kids beaten up?

I had a friend once ended a friendship with me because his increasingly strong faith, coupled with his religious doctrines, told him not to associate with others who lacked the same orientation. He was sorry to do so, and he hoped that I understood.

I did understand that he could rationally decide that his soul was more important our friendship, and act on that decision, regretfully.

We’ve discussed shunning in the most perjorative light, where a cabal decides not to associate with filth while suppressing shudders of revulsion at the very thought. We’re flirting with a straw man here. My brother-in-law is a JW who was shunned; he took me to my driver’s licence test, and as we sat in the waiting room, he pointed to another occupant who was a member of his church, who had known Terry his whole life, and very pointedly did not acknowledge his presence.

Later, Terry married my sister, and Terry rejoined the church. The shunning ended, and they’re very welcome there now.

Yes, organized shunning can be incredibly harsh on the shunned, and have the effects described in other posts. However, it can be done for sincere and not necessarily hateful reasons that are religiously (or otherwise) motivated. Thus, banning shunning certainly does intrude, not only on freedom of association, but freedom of religious expression. It isn’t necessarily a hate crime. It isn’t necessarily harassment. While the effect may be the same, the intention is not (in all cases).

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Actually as a private citizen I do have the right to treat others with bigotry. I can choose not to associate with someone based on sex, religion, national origin, or whatever rational or irrational reason I can think of. Last time I checked being an asshole wasn’t against the law.

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Which sucks but like I said being an asshole isn’t against the law.

I agree that it is wrong.

Marc

Well, let’s not ever forget those fanatical morons from godhatesfags church were thrilled when Matt Shepard (Sp?/correct name?) was murdered. IIRC, they even went so far as to picket the funeral.

Monty, I am truly creeped out!

I can only pray this is a UL.

No such luck.

Here’s a photo on the godhatesfags website of them picketing Matthew Shepard’s funeral.

No UL, elucidator, more’s the pity. I saw Fred Phelps’ fanatics on TV with my own eyes, standing at the funeral with their signs in their hands.

In the meantime, I note that a thread that started out with the title “Right-wingers want gay kids beaten up” is now debating whether right-wingers’ children should be allowed to shun gay kids. Clearly, something very different from beating people up is at stake with this proposal.

Jonathan Rauch, himself an open homosexual and no stranger to bigotry, was once told that hateful, bigoted words constitute violence; that they are not speech, but “bullets.” He replied, “My own view is that words are words and bullets are bullets, and that it is important to keep this straight. For you do not have to be Kant to see what comes after `offensive words are bullets’: if you hurt me with words, I reply with bullets, and the exchange is even.”

I stand by my right to shun anyone I damn well please, starting with vicious bastards like Phelps and his ilk. And I recognize that I cannot claim a right for myself while I deny it to others.

In my opinion, I believe that the right wing is so harsh towards homosexuality is because it is called in the bible (and I think that this is the only sin, if not one of only a few) an abomination. Im not condoning violence of any sort, but that would seem a reasonable explanation for the violence.

Thank you Mr. Phelps, may I have another?

Hastur, you’re doing it again. Pathros_1983 has in no way endorsed Phelps’s policies or actions. He is simply offering an opinion of why some people think the way they do. Surely we are allowed to speculate on the causes of bigotry without being equated with a person who would celebrate the violent, painful, lingering death of another human being?

Perhaps you can tell me what that means? Or was what I said so blantally obvious you had to insult me? Yeah, right.

www.godhatesfags.com That should explain it.

Oops, I notice that some people have already linked to Mr. Phelps website. In that case, see above.

Thanks for defending me, Manda… and I didnt even know who mr phelps was… but I do know why people think a certain way, hence why I posted that

I disagree. Saying the abomination argument is reasonable explanation for violence strikes a chord. If we are to be judged by our words and the way we use them, Manda, this strikes me at the very least of being poor usage.

My interpretation was that he meant “reasonable from wihtin the frame of reference of the abuser”–that is why he took care to state that he HIMSELF didn’t condone the violence. In any case, multiple interpretations exisit, and I hope that you can see it is more produtive to ask for clarification first and save the insults for later. If someone really is a Phelps-level bigot they will be sure to reveal themselves as such in a totally unambigous manner if you give them a little rope to play with.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hastur *
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Hey try reading what I said again, I never condoned their actions,I just said I understand why they would do that.

Hey, I’m pretty sure I got what Pathros_1983 was getting at right away. (Pathros_1983, correct me if I’m wrong.) He’s basically saying, “In (their twisted little) minds, this is considered an abomination, therefore they feel justified (in their twisted little minds) in using violence against it.”

He made it clear he didn’t condone such thing from the git-go.

Why was this so difficult to figure out? Why the need for a knee-jerk reaction?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pathros_1983 *
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My apologies.

I’ve been innundated lately with rhetoric and I’m a bit oversensitive and quick to jump. Sometimes it is difficult to distance oneself from things which are omnipresent.

For straight people, a lot of this is theoretical as they do not have the chance to experience it first hand. For me, I have to experience it every day. I not only bear the brunt of the reactions of fellow students who toss around slurs like they were Eminem, but I also have to deal with the angst of my husband who gets the same slurs directed towards him from the parents of his students.

Unlike some gay people who choose to live in the closet, or those such as Andrew Sullivan who can be insulated by money, power, and prestige, we’re in a town of 50,000, and as I’ve had to speak on hate crimes and homophobia at my college, my veneer is currently gone and I’m touchy. I almost cried in class during my speech on homophobia when I showed slides of Matthew Shephard, Brandon Teena, and Billy Jack Gaither. I do not cry easily or often.

While I am sure andygirl, Esprix, matt_mcl, goboy, and the other gay posters on this board have the same experiences and handle them differently, I am not them.

Lately, it has seemed to me that there are a plethora of truly homophobic comments and threads that have begun in the past few weeks. While there has always been at least one thread about homosexuality in the Great Debates, there have been many recently, and it has bothered me.

I am all for education. I am all for tolerance and understanding. Lately, it has at times felt like the very existence and point of gay people has been debated, and at times it has seemed distasteful. To at times feel as if one is in the midst of people weighing your collective value as a segment of the population is dehumanizing and depressing to say the least.

I am one person. I have a singular experience that hopefully no one will ever have to share or experience.
For those who have found my remarks a bit caustic in these debates… if it was unjust, I apologize. But, if it was not, I stand by my words.

It takes a big man to admit that, my friend. I am proud of you.

I’d suggest that there seems to be a tendency to assume that all Christians, or at least all conservative Christians, are anti-gay. In my experience working with and on a board populated largely by conservative Christians, that’s not the case.

They’re opposed to “homosexuality” – which they equate to “Choosing to have gay sex.” Honest, mellowed-out education regarding “it’s not a choice” combined with a willingness to hear their perspective – that they themselves are living a disciplined life in which sex is not “there for the taking” but within a committed loving relationship (marriage), and expect that gays ought to be able to do likewise. (All sorts of questions come up at this point – gay marriages, celibacy and who’s called to it, what do those Bible passages mean, anyway? – but the basic message I’m getting is that they see gay people in precisely the same light as themselves – people with a tendency to be led by their glands into “sinful behavior,” but who can overcome it through the power of Jesus. Before you go off the deep end on this, the idea that “conversion therapy” doesn’t work, and that someone can be a sincere gay Christian in a committed loving relationship, seems to be meeting a brick wall.)

I speak for only one subset of Christians here, of course. But it’s my experience that that extends far more widely than one might have expected, and that the drive-by homophobe, like the drive-by witnesser, is only a lunatic fringe phenomenon that this board seems to attract.

Typically, these laws are the product of two groups: (a) politicians trying to buy rightist support, and (b) demagogues preying on the (occasionally legitimate) fears of typical individuals insulated from the gay community and not aware of anything but the occasional horror story, and the time “one of them tried to pick me up at a bar.” (Will you *please[/i[ take that as “Poly describing Joe Schmoe generalizing” and not as me stereotyping the gay community?!?)

As always, combatting ignorance is the solution. And it takes a long time and a lot of effort and compassion to do so – particularly in this case.