RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian

Indeed I see no reason to think that this is anything other than a neutral application of a flawed law. My head scratching goes to the point that the man settled with this as a plea bargain. He admitted to it, and agreed to the 18 months sentence.

Now I readily admit that there have been instances that count as systemic discrimination against Palestinians in Israel. Thing is it has usually been the Israeli court system bringing the government to task for those instances. The Israeli court system is pretty damn good and even handed. If this man admitted to “rape by fraud” then he did at least that. I wonder more if how this went down was that the woman was given a really rather typical rape victim treatment - “your word against his word, no proof, say it was consensual and we avoid having to have you and your sexual history raked over the coals in court and he still goes to jail on this lesser charge.” But I don’t know that any more than you know any of what really happened.

Again, I want to point out, it is to me fairly indisputable that there is some systemic discrimination against minority citizens in Israel. The examples are pretty easy to document and indeed many human rights organizations claim, likely with good cause, that Arab citizens receive stiffer sentences for the same crimes than do Jewish citizens. I am sure that the statistical evidence for sentencing in general would show the same sort of pattern as the Black/White sentencing in drug cases that was noted above. But that does not mean that this case is an example of that and presuming it is, presenting it as his being “jailed for being Palestinian”, is very unfair. It isn’t like real cases of discrimination in Israel do not exist. Use those ones.

Wow, I had never considered that angle. I’ll add that to my list of plausible reasons for why events unfolded as they did. Thank you.

You’re right of course, I only know what people have reported, perhaps the cops are protecting this woman by saying they have evidence that makes violent rape unlikely. Perhaps there is more to this story but I would still like to hear about the particulars of the other cases where Jewish men went to jail under this law.

You are correct that the Israeli judicial system is respectable in most instances but as you point out in the post below, the judicial system is not immune from the societal racism against Palestinians.

It isn’t complicated, it’s called Apartheid. We’ve seen it before, whether in 1930s Germany or late 20th century South Africa.

Supported by the USA to the tune of about $120 each year for every Jewish citizen of Israel.

Probably worth it, to have somebody friendly in the region.

LOL Because you’re worth it . . .

Love that moral certainty of empire.

If you know of someone in the middle east who is friendlier to U.S. interests, feel free to name them.

Turkey, maybe, though it’s on the edge of the region.

Or just go ahead and chortle, whatever.

“friendly” is a bit weird for me. The USA is buying something with Israel, as it’s buying something with Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, etc. All - and others - are complaint states to one degree or another and in return for cash or trade concessions or both.

In terms of regional presence and/or influence, Israel ain’t special. FOr example, how many bases does the USA have there compared to those other countries I mention? And what for - all the staging posts are in Germany. The USA has two carrier fleets of Iran that get supplied from a variety or directions and by a range of means.

What is it you think Israel does that’s so important for the USA it outweighs just so much outrage?

On a 1st point…

Before providing name of the Jewish man who was prosecuted based on this law let me just state that most legal experts agree that the purpose of the law was not meant to be used for these cases of minor lies in which there is no indication or a hint of coercion or other type of authoritarian pressure. And this is where a case of a Jewish man Zvi Sliman is perfect for illustration of a true purpose of this law. In 2008 Zvi was convicted for impersonating an official in the housing ministry and promising women help and benefits in exchange for sex. So, one can find this law useful and applicable when deception is used as a vehicle of psychological pressure in a given context.

When one examines the facts of this case and the key lie that this Palestinian man claimed to be Jewish, one cannot construe any reasonable basis for coercion or any other type of pressure that would “force” this woman to have sex with respect to her situation.

Which means, any analysis that simply insists that he lied, i.e. did not tell truth and that led to sex act is not sufficient. One has to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the lie was a intended as an element of coercion and not simply a dishonest reply to a woman’s sexual preference.

2nd point…

Is this the same juidical system which approved that relatives of the alleged terrorist are as guilty as the terrorist himself?

God, sometimes one can get a real good laugh here :rolleyes:

I find it genuinely amusing that we’re here, a page and a half or so later and several posts from FinnAgain, but he still won’t tell me what I was lying about.

He’s very good at calling people liars, but just not very good at saying what they’re lying about. Because that would involve reading what other people post and understanding it. Especially when faced with facts that go against his world view, like the numbers of “rockets” that Palestinians have fired into Israel in the last year and a half. He likes to think they are raining down on Israel, so he can continue to justify his own personal racism and bigotry(*), but the facts just don’t back him up.

So he just calls everyone liars without saying what they are lying about.
(*) And that is one thing FinnAgain really cannot deal with. He is far more racist and bigoted than all of the people he accuses of such things put together.

I pointed out what you were lying about. And you know it. Good bait though.

Cite. Of course, you can’t, as you’re making it up.
Also good little trick putting the word rocket in hard quotes. You’ll sure fool people that way.

You can’t find one single post where I called you an anti-Semite. And you know it.
You also just admitted that I routinely do not call people who criticize Israel liars, but you discarded them because they aren’t kneejerk anti-Israel bigots like you are. So you’re lying there too, and you know it there, too.

Why, do you think, you engage in that behavior and folks other than me don’t call you on it? Answer your own question. You know you’re saying things that aren’t true. Why do you think that it’s accepted? Do you think it’s be accepted if it was an anti-Palestinian person who was saying it? I’m saying the truth about the anti-Israel coterie, and people are flipping out about it. What if I lied about you people the way you lied about me? You folks like to lie and say things like I call everybody anti-semites, or what have you. How would it be received if I lied and said that you folks routinely call anybody who supports Israel anti-Palestinian? Why, do you think, Amanset’s lie above that I’m somehow “anti-Palestinian” or Elvis’ lie that I don’t think Palestinians are human is accepted, but when people admit that they have an anti-Israel bias that instinctual, people go berserk when it’s pointed out that that’s bigotry?

As for why your pattern of lying isn’t pointed out by others, I’d posit that it’s probably for the same reason that the world was up in arms over the war in Gaza and then when Lebanon used indiscriminate artillery fire on a Palestinian refugee camp nobody cared, or how every year we have memorials to Deir Yassin while nobody can quite manage to remember Hama, ever.

My cause is honesty and factuality. Obviously many folks aren’t interested in either. Just like even though it’s been clarified multiple times that the law has been applied several times when there was no promise of marriage and no history of such behavior over a span of time and yet you repeat that error, most folks simply don’t care. Or like Giraffe’s little spaz fit where he alleged that despite the OP rather blatantly lying and Dio rather obviously engaging in the sort of bigotry we’d object to if his target wasn’t Israel but a ‘protected’ minority. It’s the standard behavior we see and not exactly surprising anymore.

It’s just what the anti-Israel crowd does. Like the recent Israel blockade thread where Red Fury posted a “transcript” that had entire sentences which were simply fabricated, objectively, not even as a matter of opinion, and not one of the anti-Israel crowd cared because it got in the way of your narrative. It’s just what you do.

Dio’s bigotry goes without mention and, in fact, has defenders when I point it out. How do you like “[black people] can be counted on to do [negative thing], and I don’t have to prove this because, after all, everybody knows that [black people] are bad.” would have gone, in comparison? (Leave your admitted anti-Israel bigotry aside for a moment and try to answer it yourself). Why is “black people” not acceptable, but “Israel” is?

Or look at your own admission of bigotry. What do you think the reaction would have been if, instead of Israel, you’d said “I don’t think I used to be so knee-jerk [against Palestine] but [people who defend Palestine] are turning me into someone who is instinctualy anti-Palestine. I don’t spend time slowly digesting new facts into my gestalt of what is going on [with the Palestinians], instead I find myself trying to figure out how new facts can be incorporated into a narrative against [Palestinians] and I have to make a conscious effort to retain objectivity and that really bothers me. I don’t think this was the case before I encountered [people who defend Palestinians].”
Again, do you think that folks would be fine with that? Or they’d object to such bigotry and object to the cowardice the bigot was showing by trying to blame someone else for their own anti-Palestinian bias? Again, forget that it’s you saying it, and try to wonder how you’d react if I said the above. Would you be fine with it, or would you think that there was something wrong with being reflexively anti-Palestinian?

Why is it that people routinely lionize people like Jimmy Carter even though his narrative is based on claims that objectively and undisputedly false, in many cases where he provably did or should have known they were false and when they, without fail, serve to demonize Israel and exonerate Palestinian leadership and terrorist factions? What do you think would happen if a well known former President, instead, constructed an obvious campaign of fiction in order to demonize the Palestinians and exonerate the Israeli government of its mistakes? Would that be okay?
Again, look at this honestly and not from your admitted position of reflexive anti-Israel bias. Would the same people who lionize Jimmy Carter be totally fine with him if he flipped his tactics and applied them against the Palestinians instead? Why do people, by the tens of millions accept anti-Israel lies?

Prove me wrong. Criticize your own self for lying and saying I’ve ever called you an anti-Semite. You and I both know that you’re making that up and I never have. And yet you’re still lying. Apologize, and don’t do it again. If you refuse to, then there’s your answer right there as to why dishonesty is accepted from certain folks and by certain folks.
Why, do you think it is that your lie will be tolerated by the usual suspects? Take Amanset to task for his lie about rockets, or his rather obvious tactic of putting the term rocket in quotes. That’d be a start. Why, do you think it is that people will avoid such obvious dishonesty?

Why do you think it is that when the people who I named criticize things about Israel, I’m totally fine with it, but when people do so dishonestly or from ignorance, I’m not? Does “well, they support Israel in other things!” really make sense to you, if your claim (that you already know is false) is that I attack anybody who criticizes Israel, then why is it that the while those folks have criticized virtually every single aspect of Israeli society/culture/policy, I’ve never said a single harsh word to them? Maybe, just maybe, it’s not whether or not someone criticizes Israel, but if they do so from a position of honesty and knowledge? No, no handwaving about how people who criticize Israel but don’t do so often enough for you are really “apologists”.

Can you approach this honestly?

::falls over laughing::

Giraffe, I get it, you’re absolutely retarded or simply dedicated to being an asshole.
You’ve proven it. You can go away to your board now.

Can you even defend the fact that you’re thoroughly dishonest here?
Was the OP not lying? Was the case really about someone being jailed for being Palestinian?
Was Dio not evincing bigotry? Would we all be fine if, instead of saying it was fine to assume the absolute worst about the entirety of the Israeli legal and law enforcement communities, we’d be fine if he said “You can’t trust black people on a jury or if they’re a judge/DA/cop. Blacks are all racist in those positions”? That’d be cool, or it’s only cool when it’s Israelis that are the target?

Honestly, you’re behaving in a truly abhorrent manner, don’t you have any shame, at all?
Not to mention that you’re pretending to be very stupid in order to annoy me. Does pretending to be an idiot strike you as a way to embarrass someone else? Really?

But…but…what about your dedication to honesty and truthiness?? I would think you’d be eager to explain how my posts in this thread even remotely resemble your summary. For extra credit, try to use the word liar less than ten times and keep your response to less than eight paragraphs.

Again, are you just a committed asshole now? Brain tumor or something? You used to be a fairly decent person, have you decided to just be a puss fill sphincter instead? Does feigning stupidity really seem like the best way to accomplish your goals?
You’re really confused, after I pointed out that Dio was engaging in bigotry, the OP was lying and Damuri admitted to anti-Israel bigotry, and you claimed that such facts were a sign of “insanity” meant that you spazed out despite the OP lying and Dio voicing obvious bigotry?

You expect anybody to believe that? That you didn’t respond to the facts with spastic falling about “insanity”?

Bonus points for you though for your continued habit of trolling by lying and then beating your breast about how horrible it is that you’ll be called a liar. It’s not a particularly clever bit of trolling, but it sure seems popular. “Lol, giraffe calls people liars all the time and he’s a guy who’s admitted that he enjoys live vivisection of puppies and, in fact, can’t achieve orgasm without a puppy dying at his hands. Why I bet he’s even going to call me a liar now!”

No points for your “lol TLDR!” spew though, that’s just old.

Or are you perhaps just being an asshole because of a cut and paste error? You wouldn’t be engaging in verbal diarrhea if it’d been “Or like Giraffe’s little spaz fit where he alleged that I was insane despite…”
Perhaps you’d like to answer why you originally went berserk because of factual claims in the first place, maybe?

(bolding mine)

OK, Captain Honesty, this is a fairly concrete claim – how about we finish with a link to the post in this thread where I called you insane because you “pointed out that Dio was engaging in bigotry, the OP was lying and Damuri admitted to anti-Israel bigotry”? It should be super easy, I only have a handful of posts in this thread. (Here’s a link to them, to save you time.)

I can’t imagine that someone who calls people liars so readily would play fast and loose with the facts themselves, that would be crazy, so I’ll wait here while you back up your claims.

Seriously Giraffe, what the fuck is wrong with you?
What the fuck happened to you? You never used to be such a little shit.

You’re not honestly this stupid. Why are you feigning such a degree of stupidity? How do you think it helps? You stated, repeatedly, that I was insane because of the claims I made in this thread about the OP, Dio and Damuri. That was your very first post. Why are you lying about it?

Honestly, why lie when I can quote you?

Who had I 'gone off on" in the thread with any accusations?
Dio. Damuri. The OP.

What’s your lie going to be? You were only talking about Dio and the OP but not Damuri? Only talking about Damuri and Dio but not the OP?
What the fuck is wrong with you?

So you think my post was taking issue with the fact that you thought Dio and Darmund were being bigoted and the OP was lying, and not the manner in which you expressed your disagreement? If only you’d had some way of knowing this wasn’t the case, for example my second post:

And yet you’ve followed up with more posts asserting that I was calling you insane solely based on your position on this issue, an assertion with no evidence for and quite a bit against. Some might even go so far as to call it a lie. You, for example.

I wouldn’t, though. See, like most people, I get that people can have different reads on the same situation and when they express differing views, they aren’t lying, just interpreting things differently.

The reason you are so comically useless in these threads is that you obviously don’t get that. So all your bluster and paragraph after paragraph of dramatic accusations just looks silly to those of us who don’t have the crazy-Finn blinders on.

More dishonesty, or just more feigned stupidity?
You already pretended not to know the difference between factual claims and matters of opinion, now you’re pretending that while you were talking about my views, you weren’t actually talking about my opinions (which would be my views) but the facts that were under discussion.

Again, what is wrong with you?
Are you really and honestly expect me to believe that you don’t understand “I believe that the best way for the peace process to go forward is to aim for something like the Clinton Bridging Proposal and each side should have viable agricultural and water rights.” is a subjective view, whereas “the OP claimed that someone was jailed for being a Palestinian, and that was a lie.” is an objective fact?

You’re really confused about what the difference is between someone’s personal views and facts?

2+2 = 4. is that a view or a fact?
Swiss is a far better cheese than cheddar. Is that a view or a fact?

Of course, your base accusation is full of shit too and I don’t cast “accusations” or whatever the fuck you were spazing out about due to mere differences of opinion. But one thing at a time, first you can learn what facts are and what opinions are.
You used to be of at least passable intellect, I’m sure you can manage it.