RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian

Point is that to prove this offence you’d have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that (a) the person lied about their identity; (b) that this lie was believed; and (c) that ‘but for’ the lie, sex would not have taken place.

The person isn’t getting nicked for being Jewish (or Arab), but for the lies.

It is a totally seperate issue as to whether lying in this manner ought to get folks criminally charged. As I’ve pointed out, I’m against it, because I think it leads to all sorts of bad unintended consequences.

BUT, once you have admitted that lying about being a rock star or a famous surgeon should get you charged, it is difficult to articulate a logical reason why lying about your ethnic identity should not. After all, many people (rightly or wrongly) care about ethnic/religious identity as much as they care about whether the other person has a good job, is famous, etc.

If I, as a married Jew, go to a church social for eligible Christian singles and swear up and down I’m a single Christian - and (unlikely as it seems) get laid from that - it simply isn’t all that different from me swearing up and down I’m a famous surgeon. In both cases I’m knowingly lying about something I know the other person cares about, to get their consent.

Maybe women (or men) who care about my ethnic idenity are horribly racist; maybe women (or men) who care about me being a surgeon are unbearably shallow. Nonetheless, they have a perfect right to be racist and shallow when deciding who to have sex with.

Well, I stand corrected. I can’t believe I had the nerve to say you “go off on someone for disagreeing with you over anything related to Israel with wildly disproportionate rhetoric and accusations”. Boy, is my face red!

Swearing up and down that you’re a famous surgeon is, in most jurisdictions, a crime in and of itself. Pretending to be somebody for material gain is fraud.

I’m reminded of Brian Jackson, who was fined $300 for pretending to be various Pittsburgh Steelers players. Guess what he was never charged with? Rape.

Obviously, that would take integrity. It seems you don’t have any. Surprising, but ah well, I guess I’d misjudged you.

You don’t mind lying and will pretend not to know the difference between a factual claim and a matter of opinion. Good, though, that you’ll hide behind your bullshit. You started this shit by calling me insane and then following up with insults, and of course when I point out that you’re lying in order to personally insult me, you babble about how, gee whiz, that just shows that any disagreement over anything related to Israel goes the same way. Like the standard liars, you’ve missed the fact that I can and have disagreed with honest posters about the issues, often, without any problems. Good show though.

Definite extra credit is due to you for adopting the standard trolling pattern though: lie about someone and nest your lie in a whine about how awful it is that they call people out for lying. That way either they point out you’re lying, and you hooked 'em, or they don’t call you on it and it looks like you’re not lying.

Your meta-dishonesty is just dumb. You insult me, make shit up about me, claim that the factual claims you made are merely “opinions”, and explicitly stay you’re not discussing the substance of my views on Israel… and then claim that my reaction to you somehow has anything to do with you I respond to people who disagree with me on matters that have to do with the substance of my views on Israel.

Now slink back into whatever hole you crawled out of.

Per the original link,

Which (1) means that the law isn’t one that is being used in a consistently bigoted manner but (2) also makes this particular application of the law sound quite bigoted.

Are you contending that rape by fraud isn’t a crime in America? Because I can assure you, it is in some states. See the (lengthy) article on this very topic I posted upthread.

The quote is simply and provably incorrect, since the leading Israeli case involved a situation where a fellow was claiming he worked for some housing Ministry and had favours to dispense in return for quickies.

No “protracted deceit” and most certainly no “promise of marriage”.

Fair enough. Ignorance fought.

Sorry, no cud, but suddenly I’m in the mood for some popcorn…

I said you post like a lunatic. Is that a factual claim or matter of opinion? Seems to me like the latter, but feel free to explain how it’s the former.

I also said that I’ve seen you post like this before on Israel-related topics. That’s obviously a factual claim, although you’ll note I didn’t say you always posted like this, so the fact that you’ve managed to have a normal conversation on the topic (at least in your own mind) isn’t really relevant to anything.

I’m honestly not sure what your argument is, beyond making my case for me by following your standard pattern of calling me a liar, troll and bigot.

You did not exactly understood the point made.

It has to do with the idea that the woman in question would claim rape on the basis of ethnic misrepresentation – which is already bad as it appears that there are societal and other conditions in which such an idea can occur to an individual and seem perfectly fine – but the courts and prosecution took it as normal course of action.

The absurdity comes from conflicting concepts of the often repeated claim of democratic society in the sea of tyrannies and dictatorships vs. built-in ethnocentric discrimination.

One would expect if such a law exists on the book that higher rule of non discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity and gender should overrule.

But it’s nice to hear rich arguments that one can discriminate not only before but also, after the sexual act.

We’re about due for a meltdown, aren’t we?

She had sex with him 10 minutes after meeting him? Honestly, she doesn’t sound all that picky.
Good Catholic girls wait at least 30 minutes after meeting a guy before having sex with them.

Which is stupid enough, but no, you’re still lying. You made specific claims as to specific responses to mere “disagreements over anything related to Israel”.
You simply made that up.

Your feigned non-comprehension over why “You do X, Y and Z in response to A, B and C” is a factual claim where as “I do not like how you post” is an opinion is, shall we say, unimpressive.

You are rather obviously trolling. You started by lying about me, since I pointed out you were lying, you get to claim that, gee, isn’t it awful, I just called you a liar! Why, that proves your argument (and was, of course, the point behind your troll whereby you lied about me simply to bait me into calling you out).
You’re also lying about how I called you a bigot, naturally so you can troll on that point too and crow about how, (zounds!) I pointed out that you’re lying and I didn’t call you a bigot.

Just a bit of standard bullshit that gets tossed around in these debates. The only claim more laughable than the lie that nobody can criticize Israel without being called a racist/bigot/whatever is the claim that nobody who criticizes Israel does so out of bigotry/racism/whatever.

And, of course, showing what kind of a person you are, you ignored the lie in the OP that I pointed out (no, nobody was arrested and jailed for their nationality, that was made up) and instead spewed your bullshit about how it was just horrible that I pointed out that it was a lie. And you ignored that the two people in this thread who I’ve called bigots are:

  1. a guy who has simply made up some bullshit about “Jim Crow” and invented an imaginary situation which he claims proves his hatred of a nationality, but which he can’t cite and won’t cite because it’s fictional. One hopes that your stupidity and malice is situational and you’re not always this dense.

It’s telling that if it wasn’t Dio voicing his anti-Israel bigotry, but something like “[black people] can be counted on to do [negative thing], and I don’t have to prove this because, after all, everybody knows that [black people] are bad.” then of course people would object.
But when it’s “[Israelis] can be counted on to [totally ignore their own laws if an Arab Israeli is wronged] and I don’t have to prove this because, after all, everybody knows that [Israelis] are bad.” well, how dare anybody call that bigotry!

  1. a guy who admitted that his instinctual reaction to any new information is to try to fit it into a narrative that seeks to demonize a national group.
    Again, it’s telling that it wouldn’t fly if he said “I don’t think I used to be so knee-jerk [against gays] but [people who defend gays] are turning me into someone who is instinctualy anti-gay. I don’t spend time slowly digesting new facts into my gestalt of what is going on [with the gay community], instead I find myself trying to figure out how new facts can be incorporated into a narrative against [gays] and I have to make a conscious effort to retain objectivity and that really bothers me. I don’t think this was the case before I encountered [people who defend gays].”

But if it’s about how someone shows that kind of behavior towards Israel why, it’s just awful to point out that it’s bigotry.

So, aside from the fact that I’m correct and you’re being a little bitch, yah, bangup job there Giraffe.

Sure, but none of the situations covered by that paper are even remotely analogous to this one.

It has to do with the idea that if a woman chooses to have sex with a guy who tells her he’s part of her faith/ethnicity and interested in a serious relationship, when really neither is true, that she’s been tricked into sex.

One might expect any number of things that make absolutely no sense. People are free to make whatever choices they want about sex and what constitutes a valid sexual partner for them. If, for one person, that means sharing a common ethnic background and/or religious faith, then the real absurdity is to tell them that they have no legal right to offer consent based on that metric and someone can freely obtain their consent via fraud as long as that’s what they’re looking for in a partner.

It would be nice… if that had happened. It hasn’t.
The claim is that defrauding someone into consenting to sex removes the actual consent as one cannot meaningfully consent if they are defrauded. Just like if you defraud someone into a business deal, they’re not then obligated to follow it.
Claims that someone can remove consent or “discriminate” after the fact are distortions at best.

That isn’t the issue. It’s that if they are made aware after the fact that their consent was obtained via fraud, that they’re allowed to say that since they wouldn’t have consented without the fraud that they didn’t legally give consent.

Here’s the part I have a big problem with:
“Kashur was originally accused of violent rape and indecent assault, but later accepted the lesser charge under a plea-bargain after prosecutors received evidence suggesting the encounter was consensual.”

Why was he initially charged with a violent crime? Did she misrepresent events, or were the police and prosecutors overzealous in their application of the law? Optics are pretty bad from my point of view.

I disagree. While some states specifically enumerate particular kinds of fraud which would qualify, all do not. See page 22, regarding the laws of Tennessee and Alabama:

[Emphasis added]

I do not see how this differes materially from the Israeli law in issue.

I’m pretty sure I don’t understand your point. Are you claiming that if a person lies to gain sex, the lie should be overlooked in some cases on the basis of some “higher rule of non discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity and gender”?

People accept plea-bargains all the time. In every case, does this mean that the police were overzealous and/or alleged victims lying about the more serious charge?