RO: Police shoot, kill mentally ill teenager

[Bricker]

@buddha_david

Seriously…how fucking dangerous is a 90-lb. child wielding a SCREWDRIVER??? Are the poor little LEO’s afraid of getting a minor flesh wound? Could anyone, even a perfectly sane & well-trained adult even cause major damage with a hand tool alone, against a cop with a vest and a tazer?

Here is a case of a man killed by a screwdriver stab to the head. Please note that police Kevlar vests are not worn on the head.

[Doctor_Why_Bother]

Seems to me the cops had a lot more options than they exercised, and they weren’t under anywhere near as many constraints as orderlies working in mental hospitals, who have an obligation to subdue their patients without causing them too much harm. All the cops had to do was not kill the kid, and they failed. If one tazing wasn’t enough, they should have tazed him again, or used their nightsticks, or busted out the pepper spray. There was no excuse for this.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Pepper spray in an enclosed environment would probably have incapacitated the officers too. Still, this doesn’t look good (leaving aside the OP’s apparent belief that screwdrivers are less dangerous than clouds or bunnies.)

[KarlGauss]

@buddha_david

** But it’s a policeman’s job to put themselves in potentially life threatening situations.**

Many Dopers seem to disagree.

[Telemark]

@KarlGauss

Many Dopers seem to disagree.

IMO that’s a mis-characterization of the responses in that thread. Being a cop is a dangerous job no matter what, but police should be able to take reasonable actions to prevent their own injury. Drawing that line is a matter of police procedures and government oversight.

Which has nothing to do with the behavior of the police in any particular case such as the one in your link or in the OP. I think reasonable people will agree that the police acted poorly in the bus situation and (if the information presented in the OP is accurate) in this case.

But if someone with a gun, knife, or screwdriver lunges at a cop they have every legal and moral right to defend themselves with the appropriate level of force including deadly force. It appears that didn’t happen in these two situations.

[Amateur_Barbarian]

@Cat_Whisperer

If office workers could tase each other, we would never stop being tased.

As long as no women are armed. Otherwise, it’s tased-hers choice.

I predict that this incident will turn out to be significantly different from these early, fragmented and likely biased reports. Different how? Can’t say. But I can’t remember any such fraught incidents that spun out the way “everybody knew” from the first charged reports.

[Trinopus]

@iiandyiiii

Does that work for others, too, or just the cops? ‘Until you have been in the President’s shoes, don’t criticize the President’. Or – ‘Until you’ve been in a woman’s shoes, don’t criticize a woman’.

Or are you just full of crap, and it’s actually appropriate and reasonable to criticize police officers when they have acted inappropriately?

I take a middle view of this: “Don’t criticize someone until you have enough information to make that judgement.” I believe I have enough information to criticize, say, my Congressman, but not enough information to criticize the Catholic priest in the church just down the street (because I’ve never met the bloke!)

My gripe here is that we don’t have enough information on this specific incident to make strong, absolutist declarations such as the OP’s. The police officers in question may have blown it…or may have correctly followed bad procedures (a horrible “middle ground” possibility)…or may have done the best thing that anyone could have done in those circumstances. Nobody knows…quite yet.

[epbrown01]

@Machine_Elf

Got some sty every year, but I don’t know how many civilians are killed by police officers.

According to Wikipedia, the average is 400/year. There were 301 in 2013, but they show 587 in 2012.

[iiandyiiii]

@Trinopus

I take a middle view of this: “Don’t criticize someone until you have enough information to make that judgement.” I believe I have enough information to criticize, say, my Congressman, but not enough information to criticize the Catholic priest in the church just down the street (because I’ve never met the bloke!)

My gripe here is that we don’t have enough information on this specific incident to make strong, absolutist declarations such as the OP’s. The police officers in question may have blown it…or may have correctly followed bad procedures (a horrible “middle ground” possibility)…or may have done the best thing that anyone could have done in those circumstances. Nobody knows…quite yet.

I agree – I took issue with Clothahump’s implication that only cops or former cops can criticize other cops.

[Jackmannii]

This may have been handled very poorly by the officer who fired his weapon. Or not.

According to Wilsey, Vidal was pinned on the ground by two of the officers and was not posing a threat to anyone when the third officer said, “we don’t have time for this,” and shot Vidal, killing him.

If it happened that way, the officer sounds deranged.

But I’m more than a bit skeptical that’s an accurate summary of events.

It is also probable that if police were unsuccessful trying to “talk down” the 18-year-old with the screwdriver and he lunged at and seriously injured or killed one of his parents, there’d be a lawsuit filed against the police department.

[drachillix]

@buddha_david

Maybe you could, maybe you couldn’t. But I can’t see how any untrained, unfocused, upset small child (or young adult who FAIAP resembles a small child) could pose any more than a 5% threat. If the kid was holding a loaded gun, or even a sharp knife, maybe. ** But it’s a policeman’s job to put themselves in potentially life threatening situations.** Firemen risk their lives all the time to save lives – I’ve never heard of a fireman refusing to enter a burning building because there’s a 5% chance the house might collapse, screw that screaming baby upstairs.

Police, on the other hand, put other people’s lives at risk far more than they ever risk their own. The only reason I think we should not ban police entirely is because the donut economy would utterly collapse.

Your firefighter strawman is unfortunately incorrect. Firefighters regularly choose not to make entry or initiate interior attacks on fires even where occupants are possibly still trapped alive inside.

One of the biggest challenges in any emergency occupation (I used to be an EMT) is that you never see the same situation twice, the training almost never fits the situation, and you are regularly confronted with situations where there is no 100% right answer. You often are faced with 3-4 options that might get you a 60-80% positive outcome and with the information you have at hand, the 60% solution and the 80% solution do not look all that different. IF you are lucky, you have time to try 2 of those 3-4 possible interventions before the situation escalates and or falls apart.

If the world of EMS and law enforcement ran the way you proposed, there would be far fewer experienced police officers (because of attrition by death or serious injury in the line of duty) which would result in more unhappy outcomes.

[buddha_david]

Here’s another article that verifies the cop’s “Ain’t nobody got time fo dat” remark:

The news outlet WECT reports that one of the officers who arrived at the scene in Boiling Spring Lakes, North Carolina has been placed on leave. The officer’s name is Detective Byron Vassey, though the police chief did not confirm whether he pulled the trigger. […]

The first officer who arrived at the home reported that there was a confrontation, but then told the second police unit that everything was OK. […]

The family says their son would not have hurt anyone with a screwdriver. […]

Vidal, Wisley’s son, was tasered first. But according to Wilsey, an officer said, “We don’t have time for this,” and then shot Vidal.

I hereby challenge any LEO apologist to argue that this is anything less than second-degree MURDER, should the above facts prove to be true.

[Ferret_Herder]

@buddha_david

Here’s another article that verifies the cop’s “Ain’t nobody got time fo dat” remark:

To be precise about it, it’s another article just quoting the kid’s father again, so it’s just the same source, not independent verification. All it verifies is that the first paper probably quoted the dad’s statement accurately - assuming the ‘reporter’ (stationed in New York) didn’t just take the info out of an AP release, etc.

(And again, if it comes to light that this is indeed what happened - and if the third cop is the only one on administrative leave, that’s probably bad - then of course he’s a piece of shit.)

[RedFury]

@Bricker

Here is a case of a man killed by a screwdriver stab to the head. Please note that police Kevlar vests are not worn on the head.

Guess helmets are yet to be invented. Help me get a patent, Rick?

[Telemark]

@buddha_david

I hereby challenge any LEO apologist to argue that this is anything less than second-degree MURDER, should the above facts prove to be true.

I don’t think anyone posting on this thread would say otherwise. You’re just setting up straw men.

[Saint_Cad]

@Telemark

I don’t think anyone posting on this thread would say otherwise. You’re just setting up straw men.

In all fairness to buddha_david, he did not limit it to apologists on this board. I took his statement to apply to media, other LEOs and government officials. You know, the ones who always support the thin blue line and ultimately decide whether or not the officer in question will be tried, either in a court of law or the court of public opinion.

[Machine_Elf]

@buddha_david

I hereby challenge any LEO apologist to argue that this is anything less than second-degree MURDER, should the above facts prove to be true.

I have no reason to doubt:

The family says their son would not have hurt anyone with a screwdriver.

But just because the family believes their son to be harmless doesn’t mean that the officers know it or should rely on it when making decisions about their own safety. If a guy threatens a cop with a deadly weapon, despite intending never to hurt the cop, the cop is excused if he exerts lethal force in self-defense. Murder versus justifiable homicide will depend on what was reasonable for the officer to believe at the moment he pulled the trigger - not on what the intent of the dead guy might have been.

I will agree that the officer’s remark (“we don’t have time for this”) casts him in a bad light, but I would hope that an inquiry decides his fate based on something more than that.

[Telemark]

@Saint_Cad

In all fairness to buddha_david, he did not limit it to apologists on this board. I took his statement to apply to media, other LEOs and government officials. You know, the ones who always support the thin blue line and ultimately decide whether or not the officer in question will be tried, either in a court of law or the court of public opinion.

Even there I think you’d have a hard time getting much support for the scenario described. There would certainly be some outliers, but if the reports are accurate (and we simply don’t know yet) it’s pretty cut and dry.

[Great_Antibob]

@buddha_david

should the above facts prove to be true.

Aye, there’s the rub.

Why do you think there is an investigation in the first place? You are indeed setting up a straw man.

[buddha_david]

What straw man? Cop shoots a kid, cop gets a dressing down, cop walks free and marches away with a shit eating grin on his face. It’s the way of the world. :rolleyes:

Not even Zimmerman was given this Kid Gloves treatment and he may have been arguably innocent.