RO: This is totally going to kill Bring Your Clock to School Day

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

His rationale is not particularly the problem. It’s his zeal, his dedication to getting this kid that suggests he’s got some other problem.

You say, “yeah, I was like that. The kid could have faked this.” SlackerInc needs this to be true, feels more convinced by the support of racists, and equates himself with Jesus for his zeal.

As I alluded earlier, I’ve skipped like 10 pages. But I’ve seen Slacker diss those on his side pretty explicitly. And I got him to carve out some space for Ahmed like 15 pages back: he said he wasn’t blaming the kid so much as the media or whomever IIRC. I think this is an important caveat.

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

This is asinine. Your position is that this was all a hoax. Your evidence is that you would have done this yourself. You are inistent upon this to the point of hounding this kid and his family.

I seriously hope that last sentence is hyperbole.

Assuming it is, ISTM that SlackerInc has simply gotten too invested in his own ideas. Ideas which are necessarily speculative. We don’t have enough information to judge Ahmed’s motives. None of us do. Deal.
Likewise, we don’t have enough info to figure out the game his Dad is playing. I can imagine a full range of hypotheses from good to bad. Sometimes you have to embrace uncertainty. It’s hard. Give a rat food and it’s happy. Give a rat constant electric shocks and it tends to veg out. But give a rat random shocks and stress levels skyrocket as it frantically tries to figure out how to stop the pain. Humans are superb at pattern recognition, to the point of seeing patterns that aren’t really there. But like most mammals they aren’t that hot at probability, at least intuitively. I say there are times when you simply have to withhold final judgment.

[Skywatcher]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

This is asinine. Your position is that this was all a hoax. Your evidence is that you would have done this yourself. You are inistent upon this to the point of hounding this kid and his family.

@Measure_for_Measure

I seriously hope that last sentence is hyperbole.

Why? The sister is on record stating that part of the reason for the move to Qatar is the exact argument SlackerInc has been making in this thread. See post 1333 if you need a cite.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Measure_for_Measure

As I alluded earlier, I’ve skipped like 10 pages. But I’ve seen Slacker diss those on his side pretty explicitly. And I got him to carve out some space for Ahmed like 15 pages back: he said he wasn’t blaming the kid so much as the media or whomever IIRC. I think this is an important caveat. I seriously hope that last sentence is hyperbole.

It’s odd, then, given that he wasn’t blaming the kid that he started calling for the kid’s “thick” disciplinary file to be released to the public. It’s odd that he lamented the family moving to Qatar since they would be able to get out of answering our questions.

Assuming it is, ISTM that SlackerInc has simply gotten too invested in his own ideas. Ideas which are necessarily speculative. We don’t have enough information to judge Ahmed’s motives. None of us do. Deal.

Well, you could actually read the thread first and then comment, or you could just assume. You know what they say about assuming, right?

[SlackerInc]

I’d say s/he could read every post s/he skipped and easily support the same conclusion: that I’m not into making common cause with right wing racists; that I don’t bear this kid or his father ill will (unless not wanting to lionize them as much as a lot of people are counts as “ill will”); and admittedly that my suspicions are out ahead of the provable facts (I said many pages ago that if i were on a jury, my vote would be for acquittal because I don’t think the scenario I find most likely has been even close to proven beyond a reasonable doubt), and that it’s entirely possible I’ve gotten too invested in my own ideas (I’m tenacious that way, especially when I’m taking so much incoming fire–I tend to dig in).

Thank you, Measure, for having the equanimity and social courage to take a balanced approach; I hope it doesn’t lead to your being henceforth excluded from a seat at the cool kids’ table.

[El_Kabong]

Sorry to revive this train wreck, but according to the Chicago Sun-Times, Ahmed Mohamed is, through his lawyer, demanding $15 million in damages and written apologies from the Irving, TX Mayor and police chief.

http://national.suntimes.com/national-world-news/7/72/2174614/ahmed-mohamed-wants-15-million-written-apologies

Presumably this is to set the table for the threat of lawsuit if the city doesn’t negotiate a deal.

[Barkis_is_Willin]

I have not read any of the thread up to this point, but I thought the kid was moving to another country?

[El_Kabong]

@Barkis_is_Willin

I have not read any of the thread up to this point, but I thought the kid was moving to another country?

Yes, he’s in Qatar at the moment but his family’s position seems to be that he was forced to go there due to the notoriety surrounding the incident.

[xenophon41]

Well, this isn’t going to relieve any anti-Muslim sentiment in Irving, I’m pretty sure. On the one hand I think the school and the city handled things pretty damn poorly, and some cultural discrimination against Muslims clearly seems to exist in the city. On the other hand, nobody ran this family out of town; certainly no official policy or action required them to leave. I can’t read the letter for particulars, but I’m not sure the threat of a lawsuit has much credibility here (IANAL). But I am sure that Qatar will freeze over before that mayor issues an apology.

[SlackerInc]

I suppose if it was really 100% innocent on Ahmed’s part, he might be due some compensation. But $15M?!? Pfffft.

I wonder what this will do to his chances of getting into one of those highfalutin’ schools that might have given him a special side door to admission, like they do with some other celebrities. Or maybe the family already blew that prospect when they announced they were heading to Qatar the day after visiting the WH? (And the meeting with Sudan’s wanted war criminal president likely didn’t help either.)

[BigT]

FYI, my position was not that carving out a middle position is bad. My position is that your “middle position” is one where you still take the same basic positions. You may have started with the idea that he’s a kid who was just playing a prank–a valid middle position. But then you jumped on all the positions the racists came up with. His father protested Islam–so he must’ve had his kid make a hoax bomb and take it to school. They had to leave the country–so it must’ve been because they were trying to avoid questions. Assumptions that only make sense if you’ve already taken a side.

And now does the fact that they are going to try to sue change your mind at all? They can’t be fleeing questions if they’re going to have a lawsuit. That just means they’ll have to answer a lot more questions.

(And, FYI, the next time someone accuses you of claiming moral superiority, it would not be a good idea to compare yourself to Jesus himself in your response to them.)

[SlackerInc]

Keep in mind that I’m an atheist.

Anyway, I would be fascinated to see this actually go to trial, as it would as you say require that they be willing to undergo cross-examination and so on. But I will be shocked if that happens. I expect they will hope to get some kind of settlement offer from the school (perhaps financial only, with no apology). If the school understands that this is kind of a bluff/shakedown, maybe they will call it and say “okay, let’s go to trial” in which case I would expect Ahmed’s father to drop it. But we will see!

[Acsenray]

@xenophon41

Well, this isn’t going to relieve any anti-Muslim sentiment in Irving, I’m pretty sure.

Because bigotry, discrimination, and persecution will only get better if you let the bigots and prosecutors handle things on their own schedule without making them feel too bad about themselves. Certainly if you try to seek a better situation elsewhere or seek legal remedies, that just proves that you deserved what you got.

On the other hand, nobody ran this family out of town; certainly no official policy or action required them to leave.

Right, because discrimination exists only when it’s open, official, and voluntarily admitted to.

I can’t read the letter for particulars, but I’m not sure the threat of a lawsuit has much credibility here (IANAL).

Because people never die the police for discrimination and cities don’t hand out millions a year in judgments and settlements because of the discriminatory behavior of cops?

But I am sure that Qatar will freeze over before that mayor issues an apology.

And that’s to his credit?

[Gyrate]

Qatar is a helluva long way to chase an ambulance.

[VinylTurnip]

This is totally going to revive Bring Your Dismantled Clock To School in a Pencil Case Day.

[xenophon41]

@Acsenray

Because bigotry, discrimination, and persecution will only get better if you let the bigots and prosecutors handle things on their own schedule without making them feel too bad about themselves. Certainly if you try to seek a better situation elsewhere or seek legal remedies, that just proves that you deserved what you got.

Clearly not what I’m saying in context of the position I’ve staked out in this thread, but I’ll give you that my last post was too brief to present a complete argument.

Yes, nothing will change without pushback, from the affected minority group(s) and by the non-bigoted majority members. But each and every action taken to push back does not produce an equal and opposite reaction toward reduced bigotry. Pretty obviously, right?

Provocative actions can often draw needed attention from people who’ve previously given little thought to an issue. But they also provoke* action from the people already engaged in the status quo inequalities. Reactions from the group which stands to lose privilege are most likely going to be guided by fear and anger.

Moreover, provocative actions which can easily be seen, even by allies, as self-serving by the actors, rather than in service of the larger minority group, will not generate sympathetic attention from those who’ve previously stayed uninvolved.

That’s what I think this threat of lawsuit does. It is different both in kind and effect from a class-action or locally centered civil rights suit that targets official policies which act against the well-being of a particular group. Because of this, the letter/threat of lawsuit will not only produce backlash, it will fail to move the town or the region along the ‘arc of justice’ towards equal protection and equal opportunity.

That’s my argument if you want to address it, particularly if you disagree about the effects an award and apology to Ahmed would have on the larger community (or, much more likely, the failure of negotiation and subsequent lawsuit to achieve those goals).

And that’s to his [sic] credit?

No, it’s a statement about Her Honor’s intractability in her bigotry and conviction that she’s standing up for the citizens of Irving. (The ones she recognizes as legit, any way.) I’m saying she’s an asshole.

*It’s why we say they’re “provocative”, right?

[SlackerInc]

I think it’s safe to assume that at this point Mark Zuckerberg and Barack Obama wish that Ahmed would just go away.

[ssgenius]

I take what I consider a different point on this.

It is the law firm that is trying to milk both sides as well. I will bet that Ahmed got all kinds of lawyer offers on this saying that they could get good money out of this.

I know that the law firm is only doing what Ahmed’s father is telling him but as I have seen before, lawyers once they see an opportunity will often go for big bucks.

I know it would not happen but I would like to see the city sue the lawyer’s firm for this excessive lawsuit.

[Hyperelastic]

@SlackerInc

I think it’s safe to assume that at this point Mark Zuckerberg and Barack Obama wish that Ahmed would just go away.

“Cool clock Ahmed”. What a fucking sap.

[Drunky_Smurf]

@SlackerInc

I wonder what this will do to his chances of getting into one of those highfalutin’ schools that might have given him a special side door to admission, like they do with some other celebrities. Or maybe the family already blew that prospect when they announced they were heading to Qatar the day after visiting the WH?

According to the article he supposedly got an offer from one of Qatars elite prep schools.

@BigT

FYI, my position was not that carving out a middle position is bad. My position is that your “middle position” is one where you still take the same basic positions. You may have started with the idea that he’s a kid who was just playing a prank–a valid middle position. But then you jumped on all the positions the racists came up with. His father protested Islam–so he must’ve had his kid make a hoax bomb and take it to school. They had to leave the country–so it must’ve been because they were trying to avoid questions. Assumptions that only make sense if you’ve already taken a side.

And now does the fact that they are going to try to sue change your mind at all? They can’t be fleeing questions if they’re going to have a lawsuit. That just means they’ll have to answer a lot more questions.

(And, FYI, the next time someone accuses you of claiming moral superiority, it would not be a good idea to compare yourself to Jesus himself in your response to them.)

Who are you talking too?

@SlackerInc

Keep in mind that I’m an atheist.

Anyway, I would be fascinated to see this actually go to trial, as it would as you say require that they be willing to undergo cross-examination and so on. But I will be shocked if that happens. I expect they will hope to get some kind of settlement offer from the school (perhaps financial only, with no apology). If the school understands that this is kind of a bluff/shakedown, maybe they will call it and say “okay, let’s go to trial” in which case I would expect Ahmed’s father to drop it. But we will see!

According to an article I read back right after this happened was that the school wanted to release reports of what happened but the family refused several times to allow that to happen. The school can’t release them without the families ok because Ahmed is a minor. So it seems like this is a bluff for money because then the reports might have to come out for the trial.

[Skywatcher]

@Drunky_Smurf

Who are you talking too?

Gotta be the Incorporated Slacker.