Rock n' Roll- bounds between subgenres vs completely different genres all together?

Cafe Society
1

Tangent from the current Thread discussing Rush and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

(Bolding in the original Quote)

When discussing “Rock n’ Roll”, what musical styles can legitimately be called subgenres and what musical styles should be deemed categorically irreconcilable? You’ll find the OP to be quite inclusive- the more the merrier. Basically, if I don’t have a strong reason to vote against including a particular musical style then I’ll inlcude it by default.

SPOILER Alert- I’ll be voting “YES” for every example I cite. I’ll be interested in the arguments coming from those of you who disagree.
Country, Blues, Folk, and R&B
I’ll start by questioning genres that predate Rock n’ Roll. Logic would seem to insist that a style can only be a subgenre of its antecedent and never the other way around- after all, how can “Form A” be a subgenre of “Form B” when “Form B” didn’t even exist at “Form A”'s inception?

This logic should exclude Country, Blues, Folk, and R&B.

However, one might ask: is post-Rock n’ Roll Country, Blues, Folk, and R&B the same musical style as pre-Rock n’ Roll Country, Blues, Folk, and R&B? If the answer is “no”, then did these styles evolve by borrowing from Rock n’ Roll?

I would answer “no” to the first question and I would answer “it depends” to the second question. I think if we wanted to be exact we would have to insist on hyphenating or “slashing” these genres to distinguish the Rock influenced artists from the non-Rock artists: “Country-Rock” vs “Country”, “Folk-Rock” vs “Folk”, “Blues-Rock” vs “Blues”, “Rock/R&B” vs “R&B”.

My personal opinion is that the shorthand genre names function fine without the hyphenating and slashing. I would only hyphenate when specifically discussing a distinction between, say, Country and Country-Rock.

If the broader discussion is Rock n’ Roll genres, I think it’s fine to reference Folk-Rock acts simply as Folk, with the implication being that you are using the term inclusive only of artists who are influenced by Rock n’ Roll.

Ooh- add Reggae to the above.

bienville votes: YES
It is o.k. to include post-Rock n’ Roll Country, Blues, Folk, R&B, and Reggae in broader discussions about Rock n’ Roll.

Pop
Chase Ransom scoffs at Madonna in the above Quote- but, really, modern Pop is much more derived from Rock/Country/R&B (in the Brill Building, “three chords and the truth” morphed into “three chords and a distraction”) than it is from any of the Tin Pan Alley stuff that made up pre-Rock Pop.
bienville votes: YES

Soul, Funk
Derivitive of R&B, with a Rock sensibility.
bienville votes: YES

Heavy Metal
I believe the early Metal guys believed they were restoring Rock to what it was meant to be.
bienville votes: YES

Prog Rock
It’s got “Rock” in its title- I mean, c’mon.
bienville votes: YES

Disco
Just as well aquainted with Sex and Drugs as is Rock n’ Roll. Derivitive of Funk/R&B.
bienville votes: YES

Punk
Arguably Rock n’ Roll in it’s rawest form.
bienville votes: YES

New Wave
Prog brought down to a more pop sensibility.
bienville votes: YES

Ska, 2 Tone
Pop/Rock/Punk influened Reggae.
bienville votes: YES

Techno/Electronica/Emo
We’re really getting into “subgenre of a subgenre” territory.
bienville votes: YES

Bringing us to . . .

Rap, Hip Hop
I think of all the above, that the strongest against argument could be made discussing Rap and Hip Hop. Rap and Hip Hop really did come along as something very new and profoundly altered the subsequent course of popular music. It is difficult for me to argue against classifying Hip Hop completely separately from Rock n’ Roll. Should anyone suggest to me that Hip Hop does not belong in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I would have no problem recognizing that there is a strong point to be made.

Still, Hip Hop did not sprout from nowhere.

Wiki describes Gil Scott-Heron as “Spoken Word Soul”. Could Gil Scott-Heron have done his thing absent of a Rock n’ Roll culture? I’m inclined to say yes.

When did “Spoken Word Soul” evolve into Rap? I suggest that Rap came to be in the House Party atmosphere- an MC performing alongside a live-mixing DJ. Since the beats and hooks were being mixed in from Funk, R&B, and, yes, even Rock n’ Roll records my permissive streak is going to continue here.
bienville votes: YES

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Your notion of rock is so broad as to be meaningless. What would you consider to not be rock?

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So you’re saying that every genre that is related to rock should be eligible for the Rock’n’Roll Hall of Fame? I disagree. Because if you include all of those genres, it stops being a Rock’n’Roll Hall of Fame and starts being a Popular Music Hall of Fame.

All of those genres should be included in any comprehensive museum of rock’n’roll history, but the acts themselves should not be eligible for induction unless they’re unequivocally rock’n’roll acts.

And it pains me to say that, because to me, many of the Motown acts should be included, particularly Aretha Franklin, but lines do have to be drawn, otherwise the notion of a hall of fame devoted to rock’n’roll music becomes meaningless.

To answer about the specific genres you mention:

Pre-Rock Country–A couple of the most influential acts should be included.

Pre-Rock Folk–Probably not.

Pre-Rock Blues–A few should be included, especially those that are oft mentioned by top rock acts as influences.

Pre-Rock R&B–A few should be included, especially those that are oft mentioned by top rock acts as influences.

Post-rock country, folk, and R&B–no

Post-rock blues–Maybe, but you’d have to make a case that the band is also a rock band.

Reggae–no.

Pop–No. Many rock bands could also qualify as pop bands, the reverse is not necessarily true.

Soul, Funk–No. Rock bands with heavy funk influence should be considered, of course.

Heavy Metal–Hell yes.

Prog Rock–Absolutely.

Disco–There is a little overlap between disco and rock. So maybe some disco bands could be considered.

Punk–Yes. But maybe not hard-core punk.

New Wave–Some New Wave bands can be considered rock bands. Some not so much. Case-by-case basis.

Ska, 2 Tone–No

Techno/Electronica/Emo–No.

Rap, Hip Hop–No.

On preview–ultrafilter said it better, and much more concisely than I. So–what ultrafilter said.

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There are few useful definitions that set Rock n Roll apart from other styles; any working definition has lots of exceptions. To wit:
**
–White Kids Trying to Sing Black** This made eminent sense when “black” meant Blues and R&B. But the earliest Rockers were black (Ike Turner, Jackie Brenston, Chuck Berry* et al*) and a pretty fair number still are. And a lot of European Rock, esp. Techno, is purged completely of American Black roots.

–RB Dumbed Down so White People can Play It I’ve never honestly understood what two-chord rock meant and have heard plenty of acts on the radio that used over five chords in a single composition. Also, the Sun Records crowd owed as much to early Country music as to R&B.

–Music Kids Listen To to Piss Off the Parents Once upon a time, perhaps, but too many parents and grandparents refuse to let Rock die for them personally.

Rock stopped being commercially dominant a long time ago and is so diffused I’m at a loss to call more than a handful of new bands by that description.

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Regarding metal, that’s a very broad genre and it’s hard to make too many generalizations about it. There’s a lot of metal that falls under the rock umbrella, but quite a bit that doesn’t.

6

Thank you for making that point.

However, it would be really nice if you would–
a. Note that these are youtube links.
b. Tell us what you’re linking to so we don’t have to follow a bunch of links to understand what your point is.

ETA: In case it wasn’t obvious, I can’t follow youtube links at work (net nanny), so I have no idea what you’re talking about.