That just kicks the can down the road a bit. In crowd surfing, what is “groping”? It can’t be literal groping, as that’s the very thing holding the surfer in the air. So what counts in this case?
…lets be clear about “white knighting”: while the definition you’ve posted is quite clear, it is so often misused that I tend to switch off when anyone uses the term. I’m a photographer and sometimes post on photography/model message boards: and on one particular board I got called a white knight three times in less than thirty posts by different posters over remarkably trivial issues. And the posters who accuse others of the term are often deeply mired in their own misogyny.
I’m sure there are some people out there that fit the “White Knight” stereotype. But more often than not it is used simply as an ad hominem.
Again, this isn’t some crazy dilemma. Are you trying to hold the person up, or are you aiming to cop a feel? If it’s really that hard of a distinction, maybe ask yourself “would I do this to a dude?”
Exactly. I’ve seen Richard Patrick of Filter talk about how gentle his fans are when he crowdsurfs, while Iggy Azalea’s fans think it’s awesome to try to touch/penetrate her genitals with their fingers, so she’s hired extra security, wears at least three layers under her skirt while performing, and stopped crowdsurfing.
I wasn’t there and I didn’t see what actually happened. MAYBE the girl was having a geat time, or maybe she was getting groped by numerous strangers and was hating every second of it.
But ASSUMING it was the latter case, IF this young girl was getting molested, OF COURSE the singer should say something! Never mind the locale. I hope SOMEONE would speak up any time he saw a girl being abused, anywhere!
Not only was it (morally) the right thing to do, it was smart from a practical standpoint. It’s HIS name and his band’s name on the marquee. And if the girl had gone home in tears, and told her parents what happened, they’d have called a lawyer. And they wouldn’t have sued the anonymous idiots who grabbed her, they’d have sued the band and the arena management.
Pointing to an area of an excited crowd and suggesting someone get beaten is a good way to get someone beaten. But not necessarily the person you want. I don’t care about profanity but suggesting someone should get beat up by the crowd is incredibly dumb.
I’m just not sure why this is news. I’ve been to a LOT of shows over the last twenty plus years where I’ve seen a performer on stage chew out the crowd for this kind of thing, or for other unacceptable behavior. Does this guy just have a good publicist or something?
Right. The problem isn’t the guy that ends up supporting the butt part of the body that’s being passed around. It’s the guy that then tries to yank her shorts down or slip his hand down her pants. Sort of like on a crowded bus you might end up pressed up against someone, but there are guys who will try and rub/grope a little extra; something I know female Dopers have mentioned in the past.
If “imagine it’s a guy” is still too abstract for you, try imagining it’s your mom. Would you reach into your mother’s undies or grab her boobs? This isn’t slippery or hazy at all. It’s a pretty bright line.
Quit pretending the situation is so simple - if a woman is crowd surfing, and she gets to my area, forcing me to support her or fall, and the only place I could conceivably apply my hands at that time was her breasts, am I copping a feel? Or should I avoid her, let her fall and get hurt? Rare scenario? Sure - but you get my point I hope. It isn’t so simple as a light switch, and reducing it thus is fruitless.
The guy shouldn’t have done it the way he did - if he truly felt there was groping going on then the groper should have been discretely removed. Then he could announce that he doesn’t appreciate that. But instead he encourages possible violence. What does that solve? Now some guy that was already looking for a fight jumps someone and says “hey - he was the groper” and gets away free of reprimand. What if a riot incited? How many women would be groped then?
If the only place left to grab her to support her is her breasts, then I would say she already has all the support she needs.
Like I said, it is an unlikely scenario, but if you’ve even been to a concert, you are trying to enjoy the show, and that may not involve supporting people that want to crowd surf. You do it begrudgingly, but you aren’t paying much attention - just putting your hands up you happen upon breasts, are you a molester now?
Also, people will randomly let go assuming their holding has past - it isn’t a well defined activity for all parties involved. ETA: you are going for supporting back and she gets flipped around by jostling, now you are supporting breasts. That sure LOOKS like groping, but you didn’t even want to participate in the crowd surfing to begin with - you just didn’t want someone landing on you.
And guys are subject to some crude shit when crowd surfing - I once saw a guy get punching in the head and groin a couple rows in front of me. Awful :mad:
It really is simple. Groping does require some kind of intent. If, somehow, your hand unintentionally happens to end up on a woman’s boobs, it wasn’t a grope. Now, you might have some trouble explaining exactly how it ended up there accidentally, but that’s how it works. If you decide to touch her boobs and then act on it, that is a grope. Presumably a crowdsurfing woman would expect a certain amount of touching, but if you’re trying to do anything to her other than keep her “afloat”, you’re probably doing it wrong.
It is actually as simple as a light switch. Let’s say I have a migraine and want the light off. If you turn it on because you accidentally hit the switch, no grudges will be held. If you turn it on because you really want to turn on a light and can’t find a light you’re welcome to turn on, I’ll be a little pissed off.
Best rhetorical question ever.
Oh…I thought that was the whole argument - that it was interpreted as groping regardless of intent.
Yes, of course, intentions are important. It is kind of silly to think you’d be able to reliably suss out all intentions during the mayhem that is a rock concert though. And far too unreliably to say someone deserves a beating.
Aren’t some guys out there getting off on touching her feet? 
Nope - as long as you’re not deliberately inserting your hands into her clothing, removing her clothing, or inserting yourself into her bodily orifices, none of which are required to support a crowdsurfer, you’re in the clear as far as I’m concerned.
The problem is those who use “supporting a crowdsurfer” as an excuse to go beyond what is necessary to get the job done.
If your mom was crowd surfing, would you touch her breast accidentally to support her so she doesn’t fall? Probably.
If your mom was crowd surfing, would you reach in to her skirt and try to put your fingers in her vagina? Probably not.
Not difficult.
It’s amusing how much people can dissect the actions, intentions, and explicit or implicit permission involved with something as inherently reckless as crowd surfing.
If a girl, underage or not, jumps on top of a crowd of young, excited, possibly drunk, mostly young men, isn’t it a given that someone will touch her in a naughty place? Being in physical contact with the crowd is what it’s all about – being held aloft and moved around by the many hands, willing or not. Do people really think they can toss their bodies on top of a crowd and demand that no one touch them except in the designated safe areas? That smacks of an immature attitude of “I want to do what I want without any consequences.”
I’m not saying that excuses sexual assault, but are we really discussing that or someone innocently, or even not so innocently, making contact with a girl’s breast, ass, or groin? My experience at concerts suggests the latter, and if that’s your definition of sexual assault then we need to light a lot more bonfires to burn the child molesters. (How do we know the alleged pedophile men weren’t minors themselves? Complicates matters a bit.) There seems to be a lot of high and mighty claims that any physical contact with a girl – and god help us, an underage girl – amounts to sexual assault unless she gave you written permission to do so. If I’m standing in a crowd and a girl comes surfing overhead, do I have to ask to see her driver’s license or do I just let her drop to the ground so I’m not called out as a child molester? I’m not going to intentionally grab a boobie or yank her jeans down to go all molesty on her, but I also won’t feel like a lowlife creep if I happen to touch her there. Now if she were just enjoying the show and I walked up and grabbed her crotch, then yes, I’d be a criminal creep.
But if the girl was underage, which we have absolutely no evidence of, then she can’t give permission to be touched sexually. That would seem to incriminate the touchers even if she was foolhardy enough to submit her body to the crowd, right? So what’s the solution? Ban underage girls? Make them wear a t-shirt with their age prominently displayed? If my son were old enough to attend a Staind concert, I’d have to warn him that he should not make any contact with a female there lest he be accused of molestation.
And I really doubt the girl was shocked and appalled at having strangers touch her. This discussion seems to assume that an innocent young nun wandered away from the convent and ended up on top of an audience at a Staind concert. Doubt it. Would that make it okay for an adult to take advantage of her sexually, by having intercourse with a minor, for instance? No way. But if she throws herself on top of the crowd, it seems like a huge overreaction to call people pedophiles because they touch her.
I think the singer gets off on being the big hero every time he does this.
…cite for how many times he has done this before?
It’s not unexpected. Does that mean nobody should say anything if they see it happening? (I’ll grant that encouraging people to beat up others at a concert is irresponsible.)
Fingering a stranger just because you can smacks of immature attitude. What you’re describing might be naive, but you’re wrong to suggest that groping or molesting is fair game as a consequence here.
Other people’s experience suggests the former. Does that count for anything?