I was listening to the radio on the way to work this morning and they had an astrologer on telling people what the perfect star sign for their partner is. Anyway, he got to scorpio and made the claim that being a scorpio was a prerequisite for becoming a Roman Centurion. While no means an expert on the Roman military I still find this hard to believe. I’ve tried Google but couldn’t find anything so do an Dopers know if this is true?
I have a feeling that although people certainly paid attention to their star signs, experience and ability were more important. Your question does make me wonder about the phenomenon of self-fulfilling prophecies. If a man believes himself to be ordained to be a Centurion, is he more likely to achieve it? There is a school of thought that he would be powerfully motivated by this belief. And that others might be motivated by it too and help him achieve his goal.
Pure BS. It is true that for many of the higher political offices, they did consult the Augeries fisrt (which weren’t Astrological). Astrology was looked upon as being “non- roman” or Eastern, and the Romans would not have used it officially. They would normally slaughter an animal and read it’s entrails.
Oh, and we have a rather wrong idea of what a “Centurion” was anyway. He -although very important- was not a high ranking officer at all. In fact, really, he woudl be more comparable now-a-days to a Warrant officer or Super-Senior Non-Com. They rose up from the ranks.
The “officers” were the Tribunes, and of course the various ProCounsels and such that were the “generals”. I over-simplify, of course.
Few- if any- “Roman Centurions” would have any freaken idea of what their “Star signs” were. :rolleyes:
What DrDeth said. Actual horoscopic astrology, with detailed predictions and characteristics based on natal charts and all, wasn’t even developed before the last couple centuries BCE among Greeks in Egypt (based on Seleucid-era Babylonian birth omens, probably). So it would surprise me if ancient Romans had assimilated it so thoroughly and quickly as to require a particular astrological qualification for centurions. The “Scorpio” bit also seems a little fishy, since it sounds like the typical modern-astrology focus on the “sun sign”, which wasn’t characteristic of astrology in antiquity.
Thanks for the info. It just didnt sound right to me.
He also said (wait for it, its a good one) that originally scorpio was associated with the eagle not with scorpions and thats why roman banners were topped with an eagle.
bryan: He also said (wait for it, its a good one) that originally scorpio was associated with the eagle not with scorpions and thats why roman banners were topped with an eagle.
More bullshit, as you won’t be surprised to hear. The Greek constellation now called Scorpio was simply taken over from the ancient Mesopotamian constellation MUL.GIR.TAB, also meaning “scorpion”.
I thought a “Centurion” was just an officer in charge of 100 troops, hence the name.
I think you both are actually in agreement.
IIRC there were two or three different “levels” of Centurion…?
Each cohort had 6 centurions- we still can’t figure out exactly how centurions were ranked (compared to each other). The two grades I can remember off the top of my head are primus pilus (which is pretty clearly the top rank)and pilus prior.
Also true that centurions were promoted from within the ranks and were outranked by military tribunes and other officers elected and selected from amongst the nobility. These officers would sometimes be quite young and inexperienced, almost as if a cadet fresh out of ROTC outranked a grizzled sargeant these days. But practically, centurions were given a lot more respect by (good) commanders.
This is all true for the (late) republic, imperial stuff is probably quite different.
Uhm, a Lieutenant fresh out of ROTC does outrank a grizzled sergeant. I have no military experience, but I’m fairly sure one of the first things they teach these young officers is, “Listen to your sergeants!”
Yes, we are- a “Centurion” commanded about 80–> 100 troops.
Well, they were all more or less equal, but yes, there were graduations, like Melandry said. Think of the "primus pilus" as the Regimental Sgt Major- but more so. In theory the Tribunes outranked the Centurions, but any General worth his salt valued his Centurions more- and had no problem saying so.
What a load of crapola.
The Romans regarded the flight of birds as one of the most important means of divining the will of the gods. And eagles were the largest birds they were likely to see, which made them the end-beat-all of omens. After all, Romulus killed Remus because they disagreed on how to interpret the flights of eagles in relation to their respective choices for the location of their settlement.
Also, look at the word auspices, which has connotations of divine approval, patronage, and positive omens. It’s really a compound word consisting of avis (bird) and specere (to look at) – in other words, “birdwatching.”
Furthermore, the constellation of Scorpius is one of the few which actually resembles what it’s supposed to be. It does look rather like a scorpion, but not at all like an eagle. And there’s a separate constellation, Aquilla, which does represent an eagle, and while it’s not a dead-on resemblance, it looks a lot more like an eagle than does Scorpius.
The Romans liked eagles for much the same reason that the Germans do, and the Americans, and the Mexicans, and the people in charge of naming sports teams. It’s a big, powerful predator that you don’t want to mess with. See also lions, tigers, bears, wolves, venemous snakes, cougars, etc.
I am a member of a Roman living history society: Legio Secunda Augusta. You can visit our web-site here: http://www.legiiavg.org.uk/
The second legion of Augustus had the Capricorn as its sign. This was the birth sign of Augustus. So, that clearly answers the question of whether Astrology was important to Romans - it certainly was.
I have never come across the idea that Centurions had to have any particular sun-sign, in fact the whole idea strikes me as ridiculous!
The organisation of the Roman army changed significantly over time, I will base my description on the imperial period of the first couple of centuries AD.
Centurions were, generally, promoted from the ranks on the basis of ability (coruption aside). The idea that more than 90% of candidate centurions would have been overlooked because of their birth sign is absurd. The Roman army was fully professional.
A centurions carear:
Centurions would probably have served some time as a regular soldier and then as an Optio (a centurions deputy).
A Centurion might expect to put in charge of one of the centuries of one of the lesser cohorts at first and would hope to work his way up to a century of the first cohort. The first cohort was different in being the most senior cohort of the century and more that usual number of men - five centuries each of double strength.
Each regular cohort comprised 6 centuries each of 80 legionaries. Vestiges of earlier organisational practice is still to be found in the names of ranks of centurions, the six centuries of a cohort are in three pairs or maniples and each maniple has a prior and posterior century. Thus we get the centurion ranks of:
pilus posterior
pilus prior
princeps posterior
princeps prior
hastatus posterior
hastatus prior
The first cohort was commanded by the most senior centurions:
*primus pilus * - first spear, the most senior centurion.
princeps
hastatus
princeps posterior
hastatus posterior
That is 59 centurions to a full strength Legion. I belive there is some evidence that there were a few additional centurions who may have duties akin to “artillery officer” etc.
I know this is a zombie, but in the name of the Senate and People of Rome, I think you have gotten the equivalences for Centurions wrong.
IIRC Centurions depending on grade (more than one grade of centurion existed) commanded anything from a few dozen to a few hundred men. So the exact status is that of between a captain and a Lieutenant Colonel.
So Lucius Vorenus in HBOs Rome would have been equivalent to a Lt Colonel.
How do you say brainssssss in Latin?
Stop right there. Anything an astrologer has to say while acting as an astrologer is 100% horseshit.
ETA. Ah, caught by a zombie. Oh, well.
Speaking of which, off the top of my head I remember that the birth sign of Tiberius, Augustus’ successor, was the Scorpion, and that a scorpion was the symbol of either a legion he led or of the Praetorian Guard during his reign. I could be wrong.
Could it be that what OP was asking about was a distorted echo of this?
Appropriate quotes:
“Stwike him, Centurwion! Vewy woughly!”
“Throw him to the ground, sir?”
“Oh, yes! Thwow him to the gwound!”
- Pilate, Life of Brian
“You mean you shot your own officers?!”
“Just the dumb ones, mostly lieutenants.” - BD’s tales of Vietnam, Doonesbury
If I’m not messing my declensions, cerebriiiiiii…