Rome 11/20

I haven’t seen the show, but I’d assume those were fasces. Fasces were bundles of rods that the bodyguards of Roman officials carried to represent their rank. The higher the number of fasces, the higher ranking the official. When they were outside Rome, an axe was tied in with the fasces, representing their power to kill in furtherance of their duty. Inside Rome, no axe, meaning that they could physically punish (with the rod), but not kill.

And then in the 20th century, Italian political theorists developed a new philosophy that said the state should be considered as an organic entity with individuals merely the interchangible, subordinate parts of the state. They saw the Roman Empire as the model of this, and used the fasces as their symbol, so their philosophy became known as “fascism”.

Maybe Vorenus did know, or at least strongly suspect, but was accepting of it until Servilia’s woman told him. That meant everybody knew. Would Vorenus’ love for Niobe overcome the damage to his pride and reputation?

I was okay with Pullo and Eirene. I read the thread before I watched the show, so I was looking for the little things that led up to their reconciliation. For all the reasons given by others, I think it made sense.

AHA! I thought that was a error! Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the fasces have axes in them? The blade protruded from the bundles just above the hands of the carriers.

The following post is entirely speculation…

Niobe was in little/no danger—certainly her life was not in danger. Vorenus is walking down the street with the emperor of the world’s greatest civilization, at the direct request of the emperor himself, on his way to his first Senate meeting. It is the greatest day of his professional life. (1) he isn’t going to bail out on Caesar to even TALK to anyone in the street unless he already suspects in his heart what he is about to be told. (2) he isn’t going to bail out on his first Senate meeting to go home to confront Niobe unless he already knows what he has just heard is true.

Think about it—you have just been named the Secretary of (something), are in the limo with the President of the United States on your way to your first Cabinet meeting, and at a traffic light a gofer for a powerful member of the opposition party yells out that they want to talk to you about something about your family. Do you jump out of the limo and abandon the President, or yell back that you’ll call them? It only makes sense to jump out if the keyword they use immediately prods you into a sinking panic over something you have been in deep denial about for years. Likewise his reaction once he is told ‘his’ son is not his. If someone tells you something like that (unless it is your OB or something), your reaction is going to be “hmmmm”, then you are going to go to your meeting. You might be distracted while you ponder when (or IF) you are going to mention it casually to your wife, but you aren’t going to go beserk based on the whispered message of one person on the street, even if they are well-connected.

Unless, of course—you already know it is true, you have been living in deep denial over it for years, and hearing it from someone connected to those well-connected (which means that EVERONE will know) brings your entire façade of a happy family life crashing down around you in an instant.

Niobe was not in mortal danger because Vorenus wasn’t shocked into a murderous rage by new information. If it was brand new information, he simply would not have believed it and would have laughed it off. Rather, an old and festering wound was ripped open for everyone to see. His family façade was shattered, and he rushed home to (1) finally get his chance to vocalize his outrage to Niobe about the situation she had placed him in, and (2) try to find some foundation to rebuild their family life on in the face of this new, public, information.

I found this very cool because of the parallel with his professional life. In both his family and professional life, Vorenus has chosen to act against his innate feelings of right and wrong and chose a path that was contrary to his own morality in order to provide the greatest benefit to both himself and others in the long run. He chose to live in denial of Niobe’s infidelity because, in the long run, he valued her, his relationship with her, and his family more than being right but alone. He could not change what had happened in the past; he could only choose what to do about it, and chose what seemed the brightest future. In his professional life, he objected strongly to the steps Caesar had taken, but could not change Caesar or what he had done. Once again, he could only look forwards. Vorenus chose to stick with Caesar as it offered the most potential gain for his family and himself, as well as giving him a tiny but useful ability to continue to try to influence Caeser and in small ways do things that were good for Rome and veterans alike.

Now, in a single day, BOTH of his decisions have been invalidated. Niobe is gone (though not definitively dead), his family is shattered, and Caeser is dead.

What does he do now?

Except I don’t think that Vorenus knew that Caesar was dead (when Vorenus was in his home).

Oh, somehow I have a feeling he will find out…

Man, I’m gonna miss this show. Yeah, it had its flaws, but I really enjoyed it.

I will say that this show had more “closure” at the final episode than most. They didn’t leave any cliffhangers. It told a complete story-- you don’t have to wait 'til next season to see what happened to so-and-so.

I was surprised by Niobe’s death. Didn’t see that one coming. I thought the ending would be Vorenus walking out on her, and we’d wait to see if they got back together next season. I’m glad to see they didn’t do that to us-- take the cheesy way out.

Damn, that Servilla is one mean bitch! Hell hath no fury, and all of that . . .

I was also a bit surprised at the hint that Atia knew of her daughter’s affair with Servilla: “You still have feelings for her,” she said to Octavia. That was an interesting dynamic the show ignored.

I think the next season will show us Octavian slowly becoming a right bastard when Servilia tries for her revenge. I wonder what Vorenus and “son” will do now?

A question from somebody who doesn’t have HBO: Did Cæsar fall at the base of Pompey’s statue in this?

Of course he’ll find out Caesar is dead. I was responding to jkirkman’s suggestion that the despair Vorenus was feeling was partly because of Caesar’s death. I’m looking forward to seeing next season how Vorenus responds to Caesar’s death and that of his wife. As someone suggested, I think he’ll embrace the boy as his own. But will he get together with Mark Antony (to whom he pledge loyalty) and Pullo?

No, he didn’t. I didn’t even see the statute of Pompey in the Senate room, come to think of it.

They were erecting something in the background during the lead-in to the Senate scene. It looked like a pillar or column to me, but maybe it was a statue. Does anyone remember what I mean?

I have a feeling that Vorenus and Pullo are going to be on opposite sides of the Octavian/Antony issue. Vorenus will be loyal to Antony b/c Antony was his commander, while Pullo will choose Octavian b/c of his experience as the boy’s tutor. Maybe I’m wrong, but the show does seem to enjoy playing with the tension in the relationship between Vorenus and Pullo. In the end they always seem to come back together, “like Castor and Pollux.”

As for whether Vorenus was contemplating killing himself when he was holding the knife and confronting Niobe… I think he had no idea what to do in that moment. I’m sure killing Niobe, the boy, himself, and every combination of the three was racing through his mind. Obviously he really didn’t want her dead b/c of his reaction when she died… it’s just all so damn sad. I know it’s cheesy of me to wish that the fall didn’t kill her, but I do hold out some sliver of hope. It is TV, after all.

Thank you Sam Stone for all the answers to my above questions. It was greatly appreciated.

It looked like just a column or pillar, although possibly it was to be topped by a statue. And that appeared to be outside the senate building.

Man! I was shocked! I did not know this was the season finale at all. Heck, I figured that caesar and vorenus’s wife would live for the entire show. I was in denial for the longest time when Caesar started getting stabbed.

Surely, I thought, this mus be a dream of some sort, surely he will really be fine and brutus will not kill him for many more seasons.

Booooy was I wrong. I liked the characters they offed though. They were good actors. They really grew on me…

Was I the only one waiting for it to crash down on the town crier?

Wasn’t Octavian supposed to be in Apollonia when Caesar was killed? :confused:

I don’t know - the timeline I have doesn’t mention it, other than mentioning he went to Apollonia after he fought with Caesar in Spain. It doesn’t say when he came back.

One area where the show has kind of failed the history a bit is in not showing how close Octavian and Julius Caesar really were. Watching the series, you get the sense that Caesar saw Octavian pretty much as a nephew or other relation whom he sees on occasion. But Octavian was Caesar’s heir, and fought in battle in with him (which we never saw in the series) before Caesar was assassinated. And when Caesar died, Octavian was already quite powerful. When the series ended, I still had the sense that Octavian was just a kid still living at home.

Correct me if I’m wrong but this first season was written and shot before a second season was confirmed. So, Pullo is out of the scene. Vorenus might be kept on. I assume the second season will end around 27 BC.

How much do we actually know about Atia and Servilia?

Servilia needs to die slowly and painfully. I hate that wench. She used something she knew destroy an entire family just so she could get revenge on a man who fucked her over.