Both articles say Vicki Weaver was behind a door. Yet the OP states that the Fed ‘had her in his sights’.
I agree the the Fed’s should not be immune from prosecution. But so far, I don’t see anything that would lead me to believe that he intended to shoot Vicki Weaver. Is it not possible that his aim was off? That his target was someone else?
My impression: It’s not so much against Reno, but against the big, bad, oppressive Gubmint in the abstract - Pat Buchanan’s “jack-booted thugs”. For people with that mentality, it’s easy to conflate Waco and the Elian raid with Ruby Ridge when looking for a scapegoat in the flesh.
FTR, yes, if a law-enforcement officer targets and shoots somebody who isn’t presenting a mortal threat to anyone at that moment, then to me that’s murder.
They blame her for the [alleged] cover-up.
Regarding pantom’s rant about how unfair it seems for Randy Weaver to be receiving so much more support than the Black Panthers or Amadou Diallo. Two main difference between the Black Panthers and Diallo incidents, and the Ruby Ridge incident, come to mind:[LIST=1][li]The Black Panther and Diallo incidents happened all at once. They were over before they could become news. The Ruby Ridge incident, on the other hand, happened after the Weavers had successfully repelled the initial ATF raid, and the FBI had been brought it, and a stand-off between the Weavers and the FBI had developed. It was thus in the public spotlight before Mrs. Weaver was shot.[/li]
The Black Panther and Diallo incidents were both committed by local police departments. Ruby Ridge was the result of Federal agents. When the public learned about the Black Panther raid and the Diallo shooting, they could say, “Oh, that was just because the local police in that area, where I don’t live, are bad. I’m sure our cops aren’t nearly that bad.” When the public learned about Ruby Ridge, though, the reaction could have been, “My God, those were Federal troopers! This could happen anywhere in the U.S.! This could happen to ME!!”
Exactly. The argument for blaming Janet Reno was that, while the incident never happened on her watch, the investigation did. And most people think she either botched that or allowed a cover up to take place.
Anyway… The whole Randy Weaver thing has civil rights violations all over it. First, he was basically entrapped into sawing down a shotgun by a few inches for a federal agent. Then he was surrounded while living peacefully in his cabin with his wife, two sons, and a family friend.
As I recall the events (and it’s been a while since I read about it, so forgive me if I’m not exactly correct), his son and friend went for a walk with the dog. The dog sensed the agents’ presence and started barking at them. An agent then shot the dog. The boy returned fire, either thinking that he was being fired on, or enraged that someone had just killed his dog. Hell, he was 14 years old. I believe he shot a sheriff, and then he himself was shot dead. Randy’s friend then ran for the cabin, and was shot in the back on the way there.
When he got to the cabin, Vicky Weaver opened the door, and an agent shot her and killed her. As I recall, the shot also went through the baby, killing it. Now, even if the agent’s story is true and he was trying to shoot the guy entering the cabin, is that right? Do we shoot people in the back as they are running away?
Weaver may have despicable views. But in the USA that is not grounds for shooting you and your family. The only crime they could pin on Weaver was the trivial charge of cutting down a shotgun slightly, and I believe he was entrapped into doing that so that the feds could cut a plea-bargain with him and get him to spill the beans on the militia movement. In other words, the government attempted to use force to coerce a private citizen into informing on others. When he refused to play ball and ran away, they killed his entire family.
Many heads should have rolled over this. The entrapment was wrong, the rules of engagement were overblown, the sniper stepped outside even those liberal rules, and the agency attempted a coverup when it was all over.
Then Waco happened, which was very similar in the way the government stepped all over the rights of those involved, and it also ended in tragedy and a big cover up. Those two events taken together convinced a lot of people that at least a couple of federal agencies (the FBI and the BATF) were running amok. At the very least, the BATF was risking the lives of citizens in a big cowboy raid, rather than quietly arresting Koresh while he was shopping in town or something. Hell, they even notified the media before the raid so they’d be sure to get lots of coverage. That’s how the Davidians were tipped off.
Some serious factual errors here. This is a more accurate portrayal.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=060601&ID=s973958
The shotgun and entrapment are accurate but not related in the article.
I was under the impression that the FBI could change their “rules of engagement” for long term seiges through an administrative process, and that this happened at Ruby Ridge. Does anyone have any info on this?
On the whole, I think that this case should create a precidence of finding federal agents that fail in the line of duty to be held accountable, but in this particular case, the shot seemed unclear enough that he either should not have taken it, or else his mistake was understandable. I do not think that this agent should be made criminally liable, but I do believe that he should have to at least face some sort of independent grand-jury investigation, not another FBI investigation that is subject to more botches and cover ups.
The Rules of Engagement were changed on the same day that the confortation started. Vickie Weaver and Kevin Harris along with Randy were all shot on the second day.
When speculating on the verdict in this case, it’s important to note that there have already been two acquittals - Weaver and Harris were both acquitted of murdering Deputy Marshal Degan in the shootings the day before. I’m just saying, convictions in this kind of high-profile case are not easy to come by, even when the deceased is a Justice Department officer operating in the line of duty.
Degan’s name is almost never mentioned in connection with this case (e.g., the killing of the Federal agent has not been mentioned on this thread), which I think is odd since I suspect it was that which made the Feds so trigger-happy.
I’m curious: did Horiuchi watch Degan die? I’m not saying that watching one of his comrades get gunned down would justify the killing of Vickie Weaver. It wouldn’t. But it would go a long way to explaining why Horiuchi specifically was so quick to pull the trigger. The Feds went in, rightly or wrongly, with a war-fighting mentality; they knew the Weavers were armed - both Randy and Vickie were armed during the December 17, 1991 arrest. I think they were justifiably scared.
Just to set the record straight, the Weaver baby was not harmed when Mrs. Weaver was shot.
Degan was one of four Federal U.S. Marshals in full camo battle gear on Weavers property. Degan fired the first shots in killing Sammy’s dog. Sammy returned fire hitting Deagan. He and Kevin ran up the hill towards home and Sammy was shot in the back.
Horiuchi with the FBI was flown in later in the day along with 10 other FBI snipers.
It is very rural here, it was more so 10 years ago. It is still common for residents to be armed, maybe more common since it seems folks have to worry about running into armed Feds prowling private property.
The most troubling aspect from my point of view, is that within two days there were as many as 500 various law enforcement officers along with tank looking armored personell carriers along with helicopters staged around the immediate area.
500 cops to get one guy out of his plywood shack?
Perhaps lesons were learned, perhaps not, but justice is called for. Weaver and Harris stood trial for murder even though it was Sammy who did the shooting. Horiuchi should stand trial, in Idaho and be convicted or exonerated.
BTW Horiuchi is the same sniper who is being charged in the Waco case. At Waco, it was alleged that he opened fire from his position, when he claimed that he never fired a shot. The Davidians who are pressing the case claim that the helicopter infra-red footage shows gun flashes from his position. I don’t know whether they have a leg to stand on or not, but it’s an interesting coincidence. They also claimed that shell casings were found, but it is far too late to try to match them to a weapon because HRT snipers re-barrel their weapons often.
In the case of the Weavers (and yeah, sorry for the errors there. As I said, I was operating from old memories - I read an account of it today, and while I did get some details wrong (Vicky shot in the face, no mention of the baby, she was shot through a door and not out in the open), the essence remains unchanged).
Were the FBI operating under free-fire rules of engagement? Was everyone there a target, to be fired upon at will? It sure seems that way. According to the article I read today, Weaver and Harris were walking out to the shed where the body of his son was being stored, and on the way there they were fired upon. Weaver was shot in the arm. They weren’t firing at anyone, they were just walking out to the shed. So I guess it was open season on them?
If so, then the guy that ordered that should have been severely disciplined. There’s no way that that is a measured response the situation. Weaver was contained, he wasn’t directly threatening the life of anyone at the time, yet he was shot while walking to the barn?
One thing I will say - if he was shot in the arm, it’s because the FBI intended to shoot him in the arm. Those snipers are very good, and aren’t about to miss a man-sized target from 100 yards away.
Another strike against Horiuchi - apparently, there were 11 snipers surrounding the area, and he was the only one to open fire. If there was such an imminent threat, why did none of the others see it? He claimed that he was trying to protect the helicopter, yet not a single other agent thought that the helicopter was in danger.
I’m SO glad ya’ll get to deal with this type of mess and not us. At least this time around. 
It’s important that we have a more complete and transparent investigation of the Ruby Ridge events. If that means trying Horiuchi, so be it.
But it is vitally important that he not be acquitted or convicted before the trial.
Sadly, I’ve seen far too many fools claiming to know all the facts, and that the facts all prove Horiuchi’s guilt. It just ain’t so. What’s most frustrating is that too many of these folks I’ve talked to are the very ones lambasting the feds for prematurely convicting the Weavers.
:sigh: I’m sure if it goes to trial and Horiuchi is acquitted, even if he’s cleared of all wrongdoing beyond a shadow of a doubt, there will still be people who think he should burn in hell.
We believe what we want to believe.
andros wrote:
I’m just worried that if Horiuchi is acquitted, there are going to be riots in the streets of downtown Ruby Ridge, like the L.A. riots after the Rodney King verdict.
… er, not that Ruby Ridge is exactly the high-population-density metropolis that innter-city L.A. is…
The last I heard of this, Missouri ex-Senator John Danforth was named to head a commission to investigate the Waco massacre. He brought in an independent team of British technicians to investigate the tape. The verdict: no gun flashes. Just light reflections.
I myself have not seen the tape. I do know that Danforth is a lifelong Republican who has no obvious motive for whitewashing the Clinton administration. If there’s been any further work done since then, I’ve not heard of it.
Namely, Randy Weaver’s. IIRC (my book is at home in Dallas), but to clarify the entrapment that led up to this whole fiasco:
Randy had gone to an Aryan Nation rally with a friend to check them out. By his own words, he wasn’t impressed with their message, and wanted nothing to do with them. He was later asked by this same friend to go to another, to meet someone (later turned out to be a paid informant for the BATF), and reluctantly relented. He met this “friend of a friend”, and went home.
This paid informant later contacted him, to get a shotgun barrel sawed off, and Randy agreed, as he did odd-jobs (including some gunsmithing) to support his family. Randy claims he did not reduce the barrel to less than 18 inches, as he was aware of BATF attempts to entrap anyone related to the Aryan Nation on weapons charges.
That he gave the weapon over to a man who later was found to be a paid informant, on his way to collect his 10 pices of silver, lends some circumstantial credibility to Randy’s claim.
Anyway, some time later (I don’t recall exactly), he and his wife were on their way into town to make a grocery run when they were stopped by an apparently broken-down pickup truck on a narrow bridge. The hood was up, and one or two people were apparently working on it. In reality, the back camper was crammed with ATF agents with an arrest warrant for illegally modifying the shotgun. When the Weaver’s stopped to render assistance, the ATF agents swarmed them and took them into custody. Vicki was released almost immediately, but Randy was held for a few days, until his trial was set, and was released. Whether on bail or own recognizance, I don’t recall.
Sometime before his trial, his trial date was moved up. The clerk handling such notifications claimed to have sent a letter notifying Randy of the new trial date; Randy claims to have never received such a letter. The fact that there was no copy of that letter in Randy’s court records lends some circumstantial credibility to his claim.
After his failure to appear, the US Marshall Service was notified to apprehend and return Randy to custody. Somebody, maybe an ATF agent or the informant, told the Marshalls that Weaver was heavily armed and laid up in an “armored bunker”. Given that Randy is a white seperatist, in an area rife with often violent white supremacists, it is not an unreasonable assumption on the part of the Marshalls that they should be heavily armed and [body] armored.
During the approach to Caribou Ridge (Ruby Ridge is actually several miles away), the Marshalls were scented by Sammy Weaver’s dog, which began barking. Whether the decision to take out any guard animals was pre-determined or spontaneous is not clear, but the dog was shot and killed.
Sammy responded by opening fire; why exactly will remain a mystery, but as noted above, it’s not hard to imagine why. Sammy’s shots struck and killed Dep. Marshall William Degan. The Marshalls returned fire, killing Sammy and wounding Kevin Harris in the arm. The Marshalls retreated with Degan, and Harris fled to the cabin, where he and Randy went and retrieved Sammy’s body, to be stored in a shed a few dozen yards from their cabin.
Them the FBI showed up, and began the siege, and the rest you already know.
http://www.dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/382509_johnston_01tex.html
Other than this article, the last I heard was that they were arguing about the Infrared test they held. It seems the FBI pulled the ol’ switcheroo and supplied different weapons than the ones used during the raid.
Signifigant? I don’t know, but I have sure lost faith in the Federal Gov’t to be capable, open and honest about any contoversial investigation.
From what I recall from the local paper (AP article), the weapons used in the raid were standard M16s with 20" barrels, while the ones used in the test were shortened M16s with 14" barrels. The contention is that they would cause different (less) flashes, and might therefor explain the differences (I might have it backwards, though). Or at least, that’s how it’s argued, I don’t think it would make -that- much difference…