Ruby Ridge re-opened

You all are right, there was a trial in the Diallo case.
It almost goes without saying that the police officers were acquitted.

Welcome to how us minorities feel every day we step out the door. Over our left shoulder we have to look out for the criminals. Over our right shoulder we look out for the cops. And we breathe a sigh of relief when we get home and we’re still in one piece.
The overwrought reaction to this single incident involving a white person is instructive. It’s fun to hear all of you saying and observing the same things we’ve been saying and observing all these years.
The fact remains that if you stay within the law, you can mostly count on being safe from police harassment. If I stay within the law, whether or not I stay safe from police harassment or worse is negotiable. Twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. It’s a reality no white person will ever have to live with.
And it’s mostly true because you’re only willing to get morally outraged when it happens to your own.

Anybody here read anything by Gerry Spence (he was Weaver’s lawyer and also handled the Karen Silkwood case among others) talking about the case? In one of his books, he reprints the drawing made by Horiuchi after the shooting. Won’t comment as I don’t really remember the drawing, and don’t have a copy of the book handy. Spence seems to feel, as I recall, that the FBI basically planned to come in shooting, and didn’t care who they killed or why. Spence, BTW, only took the case (pro-bono, I think) because he was so horrified at the Fed’s treatment of Weaver.

pantom, you should pick up a copy of Robert Anton Wilson’s Cosmic Trigger Volume III where he points out that had Rodney King been a woman, 99% of Americans would have been outraged. It’s a sad fact that we live in a society where people are judged by skin color, how they dress, and other superficial matters, I’m sure we’d all agree. The Weaver case just illustrates that we can’t even rely on the Federal government to act as check for out of control police forces anymore.

Perhaps you should make a GD post about the Black Panther and Diallo incidents, instead of repeatedly attempting to change the focus of the ‘Ruby Ridge re-opened’ thread.

Well I’m white and the only person I feel is responsible for the death of his wife and children is Randy Weaver! He put his family in danger and no one else. He was willing to sacrifice his family for his “convictions” or maybe even his own sorry ass. My convictions are mine and I’m not willing to force anyone else to die for them. Frankly I wouldn’t even allow it. This man has recieved entirely too much sympathy. He was not in the right. You show up for court when you are charged with a crime. If you are unjustly accused you use the judicial system to the best of your ability to prove it. Any logical thinking person must realize that this man and his ideology is the impetus that started this tragedy. I cannot sympathize with his dead wife either, rest her soul. I might “stand by my man” and follow him into hell but my children would be put out of harms way. Same goes for Waco, they would have had to kill me to keep me from getting my kids out of that compound. Their saftey is paramount in every situation. Their lives are mine to protect not to sacrifice. These people are self centered, self indulgent, wing nuts and do not deserve sympathy. I only feel sorry for the lives of the children. They had no choice. These people used their children as pawns and the public should not let them get away with it. Put the blame where it really belongs.

Needs2know

IIRC Weaver hadn’t received the summons due to some SNAFU.

Just a few points I feel I have to make.
The “illeagal modefacations” Weaver made to the shot gun would not have been illeagel had he paid the tax on them. If you don’t believe this, explain why BATF is a division of The Treasury Dept. and not Justice like the FBI. BTW, the illeagality was not the barrle length but the overall length of the weapon.

Just somthing to think about, the Treasury Dept. stormtroopers jumping Waever on the side of the road for not paying taxes. Then marshalls showing up in full camo with automatic weapons to arrest him for failing to apear at a tax hearing thats date had been changed. Shooting a 14 year old boy in the back as he ran away (if he was running away he was no longer a threat). Sharp shooters who brag about hitting targets at 1000m “mistakenly” shooting an unarmed woman holding a child. The same “sharpshooter” claiming he was aiming at Harris who was running back into the cabin(see above). The entire thing stinks to me and I am glad there may finally be a state trial into the alleged wrong doing of the Feds in this case.

My own opinion as to why Weaver was targeted by the Government is because he is white and chose to live seperatly from society in the rural hills. When Weaver refused to “play ball” with the government in their case agianst the Aryans he was made an example of.

ExTank wrote:

If this part is true, it really bugs me. If a court is going to move your trial date without you asking them to, they should at least notify you by certified mail, if not do that whole formal “service of legal documents” thing that lawyers do. Especially if we’re talking about a felony charge, such as altering a shotgun so that it has a barrel length of less than 18 inches. Anything less, and we’re faced with a judiciary that can basically turn you into a wanted criminal by sending a letter to the wrong address or forgetting to lick the postage stamp.

Mind if I ask your position on the death penalty?

For some reason I seem to recall that you are anti-death penalty. (I can’t find the thread, so if I’m wrong please correct me and accept my apologies)

Is there a reason that you accept a death penalty handed out without a trial, in the woods, by a Federal Agent, for the crime of missing a a court date?

I’m just curious.

Needstoknow…

So Weavers son deserved to be shot in the back? It was Weavers fault? From what I’ve read Weaver was being railroaded. But apparently that’s ok by you. Yep…go trust the people that are railroading you to give you a fair trial.

Never mind that Weaver was hiding in the woods to PROTECT his family, because he felt that they were in danger. Apparently, he was right.

The irony of the whole situation is that the government acted exactly the way the paranoid separatists and milia movements believed they would. In so doing, they helped to legitimize a truly dangerous and disturbing movement.

Needs2know: have you read this thread at all?

Randy Weaver was a White Seperatist, not a White Supremacist. He did not believe in the superiority of the white race, which is why he had reservations about the Aryan Nation. He was a religious fundamentalist, in a sort of Old Testament Biblical Patriarch kind of way. His wife agreed with him. They raised their children up that way.

He and his wife agreed to move to Caribou Ridge, Idaho. They believed that the various races were not yet meant to live amongst one another. If he had gone around blowing up minority’s homes, or trying to destroy minority communities, he would then be truly reprehensible.

Instead, he and his wife sold their house and property, moved to the wild hinterlands of Idaho, cut down timber and built a home in the woods, to raise his family up the way he and his wife wanted to, in their religious fashion.

Odd, but mostly harmless.

He didn’t put a gun to their heads and march them into the woods to live and die; neither he or his wife actively sought to defy or violently confront the federal government.

Are you seriously trying to say that living your life your way, peacefully and not bothering or harming other people, is a crime worthy of death!?

That failure to appear, most likely due to a clerical error, is automatic grounds for termination?

Did you skip over the part about the gov’t agents opening fire first?

Have you read the 1st Amendment? The Bill of Rights?

You come across as exactly the kind of person who seriously dislikes “The Man”, and distrusts the Federal Gov’t.

Yet you applaud the death of a 14 year old boy and his mother, as receiving their “just deserts”, because they wanted nothing to do with racial integration, or American Society as a whole, due to their religious beliefs.

Shit. No wonder the pilgrims left the old world.

Generally Speaking

As one of the resident gun nuts, Horiuchi’s story is unadulteratred horseshit. The only way it makes any kind of sense is a “kill them all, for God shall recognize his own” rule of engagement. They were out for blood to avenge Deputy Marshall Degan. He, as well as Vicky and Sammy, are truly the innocent victims of one great fuckup. His family have my condolences and sympath as well.

I no longer trust the F.B.I., as an institution. Fool that I am, I still have some faith in individual human beings, so the majority of individual agents are probably good, decent people. A few bad apples, and some institutional failings, are ruining our premier federal law enforcement agency. Maybe beyond the ability to recover their good name, and the trust and confidence of the American public.

ExTank wrote:

You mean you used to trust them? Back when ol’ J. Edgar “Don’t worry, mafia dons, I won’t go after you” Hoover was in charge?

I realize the situation that Randy Weaver was in but it was a situation of his own making. Through his own actions and associations he put his entire family in danger. Of course I do not condone the use of excessive force by law enforcement. But I also do not believe that citizens have the right to deal in illegal guns and stock pile assault weapons. The argument that he “felt” his family to be in danger does not wash. It can be used toward the opposite scenerio. The agents involved in this arrest were behaving as they always do when they are aware of the dangerousness of the situation. Evidently they had a basis for believing that Mr. Weaver would resist arrest, and forcefully so. I do not believe that we should martyr this man. He lived by the gun and his family paid the price. I’m not suggesting that the law enforcement individuals do not hold some responsiblity for the deaths of this family, but I am saying that the ultimate responsiblity lies with Randy Weaver and the way he chose to conduct his life. There is a peaceful non-violent way to making any kind of protest. Those are the people that I become outraged for when their rights are violated.

Needs2know

Sorry I hit reply too soon…

First of all I am not against an investigation or prosecution of law enforcement when it is warranted. If it is warranted in this case then I’m all for it. What I find disgusting about this issue is the notion that Randy Weaver is somehow an “innocent” victim and does not share any responsiblity for the tragic deaths of his family. That is simply not true. Defending his illegal behavior is not the way to bring this issue into the full light of day. This is evidently a case of law enforcement using excessive force. But it is not a case of persecution of the innocent. Randy Weaver had broken the law, regardless of his reasons or his beliefs. Let’s at least concede that this man was not harmless nor was he of the peaceful sort. Then we can at least have a leg to stand on when we demonize law enforcement for their actions in this affair.

Needs2know

:frowning:

This is such a crock. When they killed his family he had not had a trial, so this was not established.

Has he even had a trial on the original charges?

Besides that minor fact, you need to look at just what he did.

He cut down a shotgun to a specific length. There are two seperate laws on the books, one on the barrel length, and one on the overall length.

IIRC…he was only aware of the law about barrel length, and made a concious decision not to cut it too short.

Then…he gave it to an informant. There are still questions out there about whether or not the informant cut it down more to make the bust. (I’m sure we couldn’t find a recent precendent of Federal informants lying)

Why did he do this? Because the friggin informant was pestering him over and over again.
So yes, maybe he broke a law. I just hope you are comfortable with being judged by laws only lawyers can understand and having your government actively create traps for you. In addition, I’m sure you don’t mind that a crime that can only be determined by a RULER was dealt with by killing this man’s family.

But then again…he didn’t exactly believe in the mainstream CORRECT version of the world like the rest of us, so I guess it can’t happen to us.

Oh, he’s only a white separatist. And we all know that white separatists advocate strict separation of the races because they love dark-skinned people so very much and think so highly of them. Has the Pope nominated Randy Weaver for sainthood yet?

N2K is absolutely correct here when she points out that Randy Weaver’s illegal activities and heavily-armed defiance of the criminal justice system created the showdown at Ruby Ridge. I am especially disheartened by the uncritical acceptance of his excuses that some of the posters have demonstrated. The man is an unrepentant bigot with a reprehensible agenda, and that makes him less than credible in my mind.

The FBI was incredibly stupid, even malicious, in the way it handled the investigation and arrest of Randy Weaver. It’s possible–but far from certain–that Horiuchi’s actions were criminal. But the fact that the government acted very badly does not mean that the target of the FBI’s investigation should be held up as a shining example of goodness and freedom. Anybody who asserts that Randy Weaver is a martyr or a hero should be ashamed.

So what?

I thought the ideal was for justice to be blind. To write off Weaver based on his opinions undercuts every other case where you criticize the police for overstepping their bounds.

Yep, and he served 16 months in prison for those two sawed-off shotguns.

Revisionist martyr-making, Freedom. Check out this exchange between Weaver and a supporter in a recent Washington Post profile:

Doesn’t sound like a lot of badgering was really necessary. Besides, Weaver admits he did it because he needed the money.

I do not “write off” Randy Weaver, or what what the government did to his family, because of his disgusting beliefs. But he’s a damn poor role model, and I detest the martyrdom that has been bestowed on him by many on extremists.

minty green wrote:

Said martyrdom never would have taken place if the ATF/FBI had staged the initial arrest raid at Weaver’s house responsibly. They should have surrounded the place at a distance, quickly, and then announced their presence. If the Feds are in the habit of sneaking up on someone with their (the Fed’s) guns drawn, they’re hardly in a position to complain when that someone defends himself.

There’s also the issue that, at the time, the black uniforms issued to the FBI and ATF raiding teams only read “FBI” or “ATF” when viewed from the rear. From the front, all you could see was a guy dressed in black from head to toe. If you looked out and saw a bunch of guys in jet-black uniforms, carrying rifles that looked like military assault rifles, all converging on your house, would your first thought be “Oh, it’s just the Federal police”? No. You’d probably think, “It’s a bunch of armed hoodlums!” Today, the FBI and the ATF have these initials written on the fronts of their uniforms as well as the backs, but that was not the case back when Ruby Ridge (or Waco) happened.