I don’t think he’s thought of as a role model, but the following maybe more of what’s on people’s minds…
– A former federal prosecutor was sentenced to two years’ probation Thursday for withholding information that exploding tear gas canisters were used during the Branch Davidian siege.
Bill Johnston was convicted of withholding information about the use of pyrotechnic tear gas on April 19, 1993, the day the compound burned
It was Johnston himself who set in motion renewed scrutiny of government missteps in the siege by warning Attorney General Janet Reno in 1999 that she and the public were being misled about the FBI’s handling of it.
Where in this entire thread has anyone said Weaver was a martyr, even that he was right in what he was doing? The entire thread is about the murder of Vickie and Sammy Weaver, not about Randy Weaver.
In every post here that supports prosecution of the federal agent there is the pervasive attitude that Randy Weaver was just a guy minding his own business. We all know that is not entirely true. Not only did he deal in illegal guns but he associated regularily with other men that committed similar crimes. I think this case more than any other highlights how our worship of guns and the false sense of power they bestow on us is not only dangerous but breeds more violence. This entire case sickens me. This violent, hate filled man, who’s very nature brought about the violent destruction of his own family, and our own government and it’s role in this is also deplorable. If you “defenders” cannot see that there has to be a point when this kind of base behavior must stop then you too are part of the problem. There is one point that we can agree on, it shames me that our government takes part in these incidents so readily. I simply cannot see where continuing with the hateful rethoric will end the violence. Nor can I see where martyring a man like Randy Weaver will change anything either. This is the mentality that breeds Timothy McVeighs.
Nice try, Reeder, but the thread is titled “Ruby Ridge re-opened,” not “Post here to say bad things about the feds.” Randy Weaver’s criminal behavior, armed resistance to the justice system, and disgusting views on race are an inherent part of what happened at Ruby Ridge. Glossing them over “Oh, he just wanted to be left alone,” as Ex-Tank and others have done, rips away the context within which the ATF & FBI were acting when the bad shit went down.
Yet these types of raids happen daily in the inner city (the current euphemism, for where blacks and latinos live) communites with nary a peep. I wonder why?
Randy Weaver served 16 months for Failure to Appear; IIRC, the Judge dismissed the gun charges, as the weapons, being evidence, were not in the custody of an officer of the law or the courts from the time it left Weaver’s hands to the time it reached an ATF Agent’s, via a paid informant. You know why they call them paid informants? Because they get paid for every person they turn in to their law enforcement handlers.
And I’d like to know how being a gunsmith, subsistence farmer and hunter makes one a trafficker in illegal guns.
I wonder if Needs2know and Minty would vociferously condemn the victims of a federal raid if they happend to be pot-smoking hippys living in an isolated commune somewheres.
Minty conveniently left out one paragraph from the article quoted here.
I’m not defending Randy Weaver’s beliefs. I’m defending Randy Weaver’s (and anyone else’s) right to have their beliefs.
If you cannot or will not understand and respect the difference, then we have no basis for discussion.
Stuffinb: really? How come it’s not on the news? Seems to me daring police raids would be great stuff for the 6 o’clock evening news to feed all of the armchair action junkies.
This strikes me as a bigoted statement. Do you really think you can determine someone’s political views solely on the basis of their race? The very fact that you can refer to Diallo with an expectation that most people will know who he is refutes your argument. If us crackers are such racists, why did a black man’s death receive nationwide coverage? Why is a belief that Mumia is innocent practically a membership requirement of any left-wing organization? You’re making generalizations of the sort that, were they coming from a white person, would be seen as racist stereotyping. But I guess you figure that since you’re black you’re exempt from the standards you require whites to adhere to.
Why have those that condemn Weaver not offered any support to their claims? Is there proof that Weaver committed a crime before this incident? Is there proof that he defied the justice system? Or that he’s a bigot? You people can make claim after claim until you’re blue in the face, but that’s not going to convince anyone.
First, I was wrong about Weaver being convicted on gun charges. I don’t know whether he was ever tried on the sawed-off shotgun thing, but his jail time was for failure to appear. Notably, the blow-up at his shack in the woods was 17 months after his alegedly-misscheduled court date. Apparently, the jury decided Weaver was a lying scumbag when he claimed he was told to show up on Tuesday instead of Wednesday. Sorry, Randy, but you had seventeen months to straighten that out, instead of training your kids how to shoot gubmint agents.
As for Weaver’s racism, he’s been remarkably smart about not saying anything obnoxious to the press about them minorities bein’ inferior and such. Nevertheless, there are some revealing comments in that Washington Post piece I forgot to link earlier.
Woo hoo, what a generous, open-minded sorta guy! I’m sure that open-mindedness is why he spent all that time in Idaho hanging out with the Aryan Nations, right?
“When Weaver failed to appear in court – he had been given the wrong date – an arrest warrant was issued.” — Anne Hull The Washington Post
"The only person in the armory who isn’t white is a janitor at the fairgrounds, a Native American named Floyd Pilcher. He approaches Weaver with a bag of sage, a faded bandanna and a T-shirt that reads, “IN THE SPIRIT OF CRAZY HORSE.” “These are gifts from powerful people,” Pilcher says.
Weaver takes the gifts. “I guess anybody who’s ever gotten stomped on by the government knows what I’m talkin’ about,” he says."." — Anne Hull The Washington Post
“On three or four occasions, the Weavers attended Aryan Nation meetings up at Hayden Lake, a compound for government resisters and for white separatists and supremacists… “Punk idiots” is what he calls many of the attendees at Aryan Nation meetings.” — Anne Hull The Washington Post
“It was Vicki Weaver who drove her family’s peculiar following of Old Covenant Laws, calling God “Yahweh” and believing themselves to be the true Israelites.” — Anne Hull The Washington Post
“The Weavers’ racial views were obscured by the enormity of what happened to them during the siege at Ruby Ridge. After the sniper killed Vicki Weaver, negotiators used a bullhorn to greet her in the morning, saying they’d had pancakes for breakfast – what did she have?” — Anne Hull The Washington Post
"An investigation found that the FBI had altered its rules of engagement, directing agents to shoot any armed adults on sight. Several high-ranking FBI officials were disciplined after a Justice Department inquiry found evidence of a cover-up. One pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice. The No. 2 official at the FBI, Deputy Director Larry Potts, was demoted after an investigation found evidence of misconduct. He retired two years later.
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals is still reviewing whether Horiuchi should be subject to manslaughter charges.
" — Anne Hull The Washington Post
“His daughters live in Montana. The oldest, Sara, 24, is married to a corrections officer. The youngest, Elisheba, whom Vicki Weaver was cradling when she was shot, is 9 and lives with her sister Rachel, who is 19.” — Anne Hull The Washington Post
minty green quoted a 1995 Time magazine article about Randy Weaver moving back to Idaho:
Well, heck, if a woman is terrified of Randy Weaver because of something she read about him, that [p]proves** he’s a dirty no-good scumbag who deserved everything the Feds levelled against him.
Yeah, Minty. I get it. A reporter said a woman said he said hateful stuff, just generally. No quotes. Heck, we all could say that about you.
I don’t think he singles out Catholics…
“I don’t have the answer,” Weaver says. “Religion’s all a bunch of crap.” — Anne Hill, The Washington Post
Meanwhile…
“Yet Weaver continues to rise like a martyr above the wreckage. In his case, the black helicopters really did come. A robot with a gun in its claw really did move across his cabin porch.” — Anne Hill, The Washington Post
You people attacking Randy Weaver in order to defend the government should be ashamed of yourselves. His personal habits, language, and racial beliefs are not in the slightest bit material to this.
But you know, these kinds of personal attacks against the victims of agression are what have been used to justify this sort of thing since man first left the caves. From the portrayals of cannibalism that helped feed to Crusades to the portrayal of black slaves as lacking in morals, to Soviet Union’s smearing of “Hooligans” and “Anarchists”, and the Nazi’s smearing of Jews, attacking the victims has always been the way that those who have used violence against innocent people have justified their evil ways.
The U.S. is already headed down a slippery slope towards fascism with the insane war on drugs, civil forfeiture laws, zero-tolerance policies everywhere, and government agencies starting to exceed their powers all over the place. I would have thought that the civil libertarian impulse on the left would have condemned this stronger than the right has. But apparently civil liberties only apply to those with the ‘right’ kind of ideas.
I’m a fan of the ACLU, not known for its right-wing affiliation. But at least it has the courage to stand up for civil rights regardless of the political persuasions of the victim.