Rude behavior at blackjack tables

[Roland_Orzabal]

I’ve played a decent amount of blackjack, MeanOldLady, though I don’t know if I’ve played enough to say that I “play”, if you get my meaning.

Now, I do believe that your post wasn’t intended as snark, and I’m going to ask you to please interpret mine the same way. I do want to understand where you’re coming from.

It seems to me as if there really are two different debates going on in this thread. You and Ender seem to be arguing the point that people will get annoyed with you if you don’t follow their expectations, and that you shouldn’t be surprised when this happens. I acknowledge this — and I think SenorBeef does as well, though I won’t speak for him — but then go on to submit that, while they will of course do this, they have no right to do so. You’ve agreed that there’s no rational basis for concluding that they do.

With that, the argument for imposing arbitrary expectations on other people is founded solely on the fact that these expectations exist, and people will get upset if you don’t abide by them. That’s circular reasoning.

Of course, that does little to counteract an argument that is by definition not based on rationality, but that’s what makes these sorts of conversations frustrating…the sort where the status quo is being upheld as having moral weight simply by virtue of being the status quo. How do you argue with somebody who’s saying “I have no rational basis for my stance, but due to the sheer number of irrational people, you are wrong by default for disagreeing”?

If you honestly believe that people get to form expectations about others’ behavior based on nothing, and that them doing so in sufficient numbers constitutes an obligation on the part of everyone else to comply, then there’s nothing I can do to talk you out of it. I really don’t think that you believe that, though, so I’m asking you to consider that this specific case is no different, and should be judged no differently, from any other hypothetical I could formulate…blue shirts or otherwise.

I believe that regardless of the status quo, regardless of whatever judgments people will or will not make, people do not have the right to pull forth expectations from the ether and impose an obligation on others to comply. If you disagree with this, in the general case or in the specific, can you please help me to understand why?

[silenus]

@SenorBeef

What are you trying to say here? Dealers are mechanical - they simply deal the cards according to a precise procedure with no personal infleunce at all. They are not exerting supernatural forces over the deck. Now “help you with your hand” as far as recommending an action to people makes sense (although are you saying you refuse to help bad tippers or even give them bad advice?), but what are you saying as far as “work with you” vs “take your money”? Do you think you have some sort of control over which players win or lose?

I think you hit it with the “helping” angle. ISTM CM was saying that he would wave off people from making lousy decisions (based on optimum strategy) if they were not pains in the ass, and not give such advice if they were.

[Zeriel]

@SenorBeef

I always thought this was peculiar. Of course the idiot players will blame the dealers for the way the cards come down - abuse them, even. Or they’ll say “oh they’re bringing in their best dealer, the cooler” or other such nonsense. And I usually feel bad for the dealers - they’re just dealing the cards, they didn’t just stomp your puppy to death like you’re treating them.

But then I see dealers seemingly buy into this mentality, as if they did indeed have some sort of magical control over who wins or loses. You seem to be displaying that here, unless I’m misreading you.

Y’know, it occurs to me that you might just not really be on board with the superstitions and such like this being part of the fun for the average blackjack player, and saying what you’re saying now at the table would be kinda like (in type but obviously not degree) standing up in the middle of Sunday mass and proclaiming that God was a myth, really.

It’s part of the fun and the fantasy–the same fantasy that one is potentially able to get rich on nickel slots and $5 blackjack.

[SenorBeef]

We’re not at the blackjack table, we’re in a thread about the rude behavior of people at blackjack tables.

I don’t say this stuff at the tables, when I occasionally play.

Edit: More often than not I’m trying to encourage irrational, superstitious behavior - because it makes me money at the poker tables.

[muldoonthief]

@silenus

I think you hit it with the “helping” angle. ISTM CM was saying that he would wave off people from making lousy decisions (based on optimum strategy) if they were not pains in the ass, and not give such advice if they were.

To hijack, how does that work? If a player wants to hit his 15 when the dealer has a 6 showing, will the dealer just say “That’s probably not a good idea”? Will he explain it further - “You’re more likely to win if you stand, and hope that I bust, than if you try to beat my total” ?

And what happens in the inevitable occasions when the player changes their play based on the dealers recommendation, winds up losing, and it turns out based on the cards that actually showed up that he would have won if he’d followed his original instincts, and then raises a stink about it? “Goddamn it! You told me to stand, but the next card was a 6, and you didn’t bust! If I’d just hit like I wanted to I’d have won! I want my $3 back!!!”

[MeanOldLady]

@Roland_Orzabal

Now, I do believe that your post wasn’t intended as snark, and I’m going to ask you to please interpret mine the same way. I do want to understand where you’re coming from.

Will do, and likewise.

With that, the argument for imposing arbitrary expectations on other people is founded solely on the fact that these expectations exist, and people will get upset if you don’t abide by them. That’s circular reasoning.

Of course, that does little to counteract an argument that is by definition not based on rationality, but that’s what makes these sorts of conversations frustrating…the sort where the status quo is being upheld as having moral weight simply by virtue of being the status quo. How do you argue with somebody who’s saying “I have no rational basis for my stance, but due to the sheer number of irrational people, you are wrong by default for disagreeing”?

Well that’s the whole issue with politeness in general. A lot of it is pointless, illogical crap that we do to show people we’re making an effort to consider how they feel. If I get sauce on my lip at the dinner table, why should I dab it away immediately? Why shouldn’t I just leave in there until I’m done so that I don’t have to keep dabbing over and over in case I get more sauce on me? And why should anyone care if they have to suffer through looking at sauce at the corner of my mouth for twenty minutes? It’s stupid. I am not saying people who behave rudely are necessarily right or wrong. It really depends on what they’re actually doing. Wearing a blue shirt to the Blue Shirt Haters Convention, for example, may be rude, but it isn’t actually doing anything wrong. Slapping someone in the face is both rude and wrong. I am not giving the status quo any moral weight, but I am saying we’re all aware that there is a status quo, and acting outside of it will very likely be perceived as impolite. To be clear, impolite =/= immoral. We can talk about whether or not one should be polite, but that’s a different thread entirely, and the argument I was reading that an act is not impolite if it’s rational and harmless.

Hey, maybe if we all started doing whatever the hell we wanted at blackjack tables, casino cultures would adapt, and harmless but stupid behavior (stupid for the better to blow a winning hand, that is) would not be so frowned upon.

I believe that regardless of the status quo, regardless of whatever judgments people will or will not make, people do not have the right to pull forth expectations from the ether and impose an obligation on others to comply. If you disagree with this, in the general case or in the specific, can you please help me to understand why?

Do I believe people should pull stuff from betwixt their ass cheeks, and demand that people comply? No. But most people’s standards were not plucked from thin air, and are based on convention. Whether or not the convention makes sense or is a good one is, like I said earlier, is a different can of beans. It is different for me to request that you style your hair differently, then declare you’re rude when you don’t, than it is for people to think you are rude for being a sloppy eater.

Do I comply with many social conventions that I think are silly? Yes. Mainly because it makes functioning in this silly thing called society a lot easier. If you don’t want to, have at it. Wear sneakers to a Black Tie event, and never mind if anyone thinks you’re rude or boorish.

[Zeriel]

@SenorBeef

Edit: More often than not I’m trying to encourage irrational, superstitious behavior - because it makes me money at the poker tables.

I learned a long time ago I’m the poker table sucker. Probably could learn to be better, but haven’t bothered.

[filmore]

@muldoonthief

And what happens in the inevitable occasions when the player changes their play based on the dealers recommendation, winds up losing, and it turns out based on the cards that actually showed up that he would have won if he’d followed his original instincts, and then raises a stink about it? “Goddamn it! You told me to stand, but the next card was a 6, and you didn’t bust! If I’d just hit like I wanted to I’d have won! I want my $3 back!!!”

Good example. I wonder what would happen in this case? A paid employee of the company advised the player to do something that turned out very unfavorable to the player and highly favorable to the company. It seems like the player would have a legitimate claim against the casino.

I could imagine a situation where the dealer and casino are in cahoots. Somehow the crooked dealer knows what the next card is. When the player makes a bad move but the next card would end up being a winner, the dealer gives the “proper BJ strategy” advice and suggest the player not take the card. But when the next card would be a loser, the dealer says nothing. This way the dealer looks clean (“I was only telling him the perfect BJ strategy”), but the casino makes more money.

[Captain_Midnight]

@SenorBeef

What are you trying to say here? Dealers are mechanical - they simply deal the cards according to a precise procedure with no personal infleunce at all. They are not exerting supernatural forces over the deck. Now “help you with your hand” as far as recommending an action to people makes sense (although are you saying you refuse to help bad tippers or even give them bad advice?), but what are you saying as far as “work with you” vs “take your money”? Do you think you have some sort of control over which players win or lose?

I always thought this was peculiar. Of course the idiot players will blame the dealers for the way the cards come down - abuse them, even. Or they’ll say “oh they’re bringing in their best dealer, the cooler” or other such nonsense. And I usually feel bad for the dealers - they’re just dealing the cards, they didn’t just stomp your puppy to death like you’re treating them.

But then I see dealers seemingly buy into this mentality, as if they did indeed have some sort of magical control over who wins or loses. You seem to be displaying that here, unless I’m misreading you.

To try to explain (and it doesn’t make much sense). Yes, the dealer has no influence over the cards or the outcome. However, if I am dealing and I want to run you off my table, I can do somethings to make that possible.

For one thing, do not smile or make eye contact. Be a robot.

Deal fast. Deal quickly and throw the player off balance. Count out their hands faster tan they can. Some daytripper players can’t keep up because of alcohol and intoxication, or being tired from spending all day and night in a timeless environment.

Offer the illusion that you do have the power over the cards. Not that hard. Most gamblers are stupid anyway. Taking their chips in a quick and efficient manner will ensure that the guest will run.

If I want to help a guest. (who is tipping, obviously)

Deal the game at a slower but fun pace.

As a dealer, one is not allowed to argue a decision a player makes, but we can offer timely suggestions.

Show empathy if they lost their money. Another cardinal rule is never say “I’m sorry.” but empathy would show that I care.

[Morbo]

@SenorBeef

This is unambiguously wrong in every way. At least you silently stew in your own nonsense instead of being rude to people, so credit for that.

Did I say I knew I was right or wrong? I’m simply offering an explanation for the OP. If everyone has between a 14 and 16, and the dealer shows a 15, and the guy at 3rd base hits on his 15 and busts, well then I’m going to another table. I don’t particularly care what the odds say or any other of the probability mathmeticianesque blah blah, that’s just the way I play and have always played. I’m just there to have fun and not care too much.

I have learned one thing from this thread, though - stay the hell out of blackjack threads.

[Zeriel]

@Captain_Midnight

Show empathy if they lost their money. Another cardinal rule is never say “I’m sorry.” but empathy would show that I care.

Was this a Harrahs rule? At Seneca Niagara and Seneca Allegheny (where I do most of my playing), dealers inevitably apologize for dealing themselves a blackjack.

[villa]

@SenorBeef

If a person doesn’t play perfect blackjack, it has no effect on anyone. There is no intent to be rude, there is no harm done, there is no logical reason you can identify it as rude.

The only reason it’s considered rude is EXACTLY BECAUSE most people who gamble are retards. They think, erroneously, that the person making the wrong move is doing it to hurt them. So the social standards a person can be violating here only exist because people are stupid.

The way you describe your motivation is what makes it rude. The person’s belief you are affecting them is illogical, but you are deliberately lowering your own chances of winning (as is your right) in order to piss someone off. That’s an unbelievably rude thing to do.

You might think religious beliefs are illogical and have no basis, but if a person is sat there whispering a prayer before they bet, stating loudly that you just wiped your ass with a picture of the Virgin Mary, or a copy of the Koran, in order to bring you luck would also be a rude thing to do.

[silenus]

In my experience, dealers don’t give advice. They tell you what the odds are, and what optimum strategy tells you to do, but they don’t tell you what to do. That way it all falls on the player if it turns all pear-shaped. If someone started then yelling about their $3, the pit boss would likely wander over, hear both sides, and tell the player to go play somewhere else.

[Incubus]

Most of the dealers I played against were very polite. In many of the places we played, you could tip the dealer directly, or put chips on the dealer’s edge of the betting circle, which was like betting on behalf of the dealer (you put a $1 chip on the top part of the circle, you win, dealer gets a $2 gratuity, you lose, house gets the bet).

My girlfriend enjoyed splitting and doubling down every chance she got. She’d double down on an 11 even though the dealer had a face card showing, and everybody to the left of her would go :eek: :rolleyes: followed by :dubious: when she’d get a 10 next, then suddenly the whole table is doubling down on their tens and 11s and the dealer busts :D. The way I see the game, you can do the ‘right’ thing according to the book and still lose, or do something stupid but get lucky.

When asked whether to hit/stand, the dealer would always preface his/her response with, “The book says…”. From what I observed, they were pretty consistent with telling players the basic strategies of blackjack.

Most games we played were with 2 decks. Blackjack only paid 6-5 on those tables (playing the 6 deck shoe would pay 3-2 on blackjack). There was also a side bet that if your starting hand was the same suit, you’d win 2.5-1, 5-1 on blackjack with the same suit, and 25-1 on King/Queen of the same suit. Our last game I was getting stingy and not betting the side bet, and of course I ended up getting TWO hands of King/Queen of the same suit in the span of an hour :smack:

I’m not that supersticious, but there are some ironic things that happen an awful lot- $3 bets I’ll get blackjack a lot, $20 bets I’ll be stupid and stand on a soft 17 when the dealer has a face card showing

[RickJay]

@MeanOldLady

Bah, go Google search blackjack table etiquette. If you don’t think etiquette is important, then we’re at an impasse.

I did this, randomly reading some “Blackjack etiquette” lists. Not a single one of them said splitting tens was rude. All concerned themselves with ETIQUETTE, not strategy.

[MeanOldLady]

@villa

You might think religious beliefs are illogical and have no basis, but if a person is sat there whispering a prayer before they bet, stating loudly that you just wiped your ass with a picture of the Virgin Mary, or a copy of the Koran, in order to bring you luck would also be a rude thing to do.

Please point to specific, tangible harm done to the person by your wiping shit all over representations of their deity! I didn’t think so.

@silenus

In my experience, dealers don’t give advice. They tell you what the odds are, and what optimum strategy tells you to do, but they don’t tell you what to do. That way it all falls on the player if it turns all pear-shaped.

How would you characterize telling a player what the best strategy is, if not as advice? I guess stating only “The Book says stand” may not technically be defined as advice, but I suppose I regard it that way. Sometimes, though, they’ll use the word “should.” Also, whenever the table looks like they’ve all got a winning pair, usually the dealer will just give a quick sweep of the hand over the table to make sure there are no objections, instead addressing each better the way one usually would. That always struck me as their way of saying, “Everybody stand.”

[asterion]

@Incubus

Most of the dealers I played against were very polite. In many of the places we played, you could tip the dealer directly, or put chips on the dealer’s edge of the betting circle, which was like betting on behalf of the dealer (you put a $1 chip on the top part of the circle, you win, dealer gets a $2 gratuity, you lose, house gets the bet).

My girlfriend enjoyed splitting and doubling down every chance she got. She’d double down on an 11 even though the dealer had a face card showing, and everybody to the left of her would go :eek: :rolleyes: followed by :dubious: when she’d get a 10 next, then suddenly the whole table is doubling down on their tens and 11s and the dealer busts :D. The way I see the game, you can do the ‘right’ thing according to the book and still lose, or do something stupid but get lucky.

I often tip directly, but it can be fun to bet with the dealer as well. If I do that, I also split and double for the dealer as well. I’ve done it in other games as well, such as field bets for the table in craps or on a bonus bet in a game like Pai-Gow Poker. I had a $1 bet out on the Fortune Bonus in a game of Pai-Gow for the dealer along with the $5 minimum to make that bet for myself, hit a royal flush, and bam, $750 for me, $150 for the dealer. I think I pushed that hand, though, as I had no low hand.

I’d go :rolleyes: myself (internally) if I saw someone not doubling on 11 against a 10. That’s a basic book play and not making it just increases the house edge. And someone out to lose money (nothing personal, Incubus) plays 6/5 blackjack. The counting advantage on a 2-deck shoe can’t overcome the enormous effect that 6/5 blackjack has on the house edge.

You want to get a lot of crap from other players while gambling, try betting No Pass on a cold craps table. People take offense that you are winning while they’re losing, even if you’re not saying or doing anything but putting your bets down. They also don’t like it if, after making their unhappiness known, if you point out that you are making a mathematically better bet than they are.

[Oakminster]

@silenus

I think you hit it with the “helping” angle. ISTM CM was saying that he would wave off people from making lousy decisions (based on optimum strategy) if they were not pains in the ass, and not give such advice if they were.

That’s very consistent with my experience. Dealers tend to have good memories, too. If you play at the same places, they’ll recognize you. On my last casino trip, as I sat down, the dealer greeted me by name (before my player’s card was even out of my pocket), automatically passed me an ashtray, and asked the Pit Boss to send a waitress over, because I’d be needing bourbon & coke. He didn’t have to do any of those things, but he’s seen me play several times at different games, he knows I’m going to tip, and he knows I’m not an asshole.

If I may wax philosophic for a moment, the thing about gambling is you need to understand that you are buying entertainment. Budget accordingly. When you lose the gambling budget for the trip or for the day, you’re done. Thank the dealer for the game, wish everyone at the table good luck, and walk away. Notice I said when you lose the gambling budget. Not if, but when. You are not a professional gambler. You are probably not even a very good gambler. You will, in all probability, leave the casino with less money than you had when you arrived. Expect that, and enjoy the experience. It makes the rare times that you walk out with more money than you brought that much sweeter.

As for table manners, at least in Tunica, just understand that people are there to have fun. They are not always going to make the “correct” play. They will sometimes talk too loud, drink too much, smoke like chimneys (I do), or otherwise do things you find unpleasant or uncouth. They probably aren’t doing it to piss you off. Lighten up, have another drink, and enjoy the ride. Fun, laughing tables rock. Don’t be the buzzkill.

[MPB_in_Salt_Lake]

@MeanOldLady

Piss off. I’m done with you.

Shouldn’t you still be crying over someone breaking into your piece of shit car?

[MeanOldLady]

You’re absolutely right! I’m going to schedule a hiatus from life, and go cry. Thanks for reminding me!