Rumsfeld: "It will be a long, hard slog."

Great Debates
#1

link

According to an internal memo addressed to senior Pentagon officials, Rumsfeld thinks that:

“My impression is that we have not yet made truly bold moves” :eek:

and

“It is pretty clear that the coalition can win in Afghanistan and Iraq in one way or another, but it will be a long, hard slog.” :rolleyes:

and, most amazingly:

“Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror,” he wrote. “Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?” He added: “Is our current situation such that the harder we work the behinder we get?” :smack:

So, are they finally beginning to see the (very intense) light?
Why then, is Bush saying that everything is just peachy over there?

#2

Because nobody wants to alarm the sheep.

#3

Yes, I get it. Everyone is a sheep except you.

You know, I think there is a more important dividing line than that between conservative or democrat, or statist and libertarian. I often find that the most important thing you can know about someone politically is whether they consider the average voter an uniformed boob who is either villanously bamboozled by the elite or heroically led by the avant garde, or whether they think the average person is pretty smart, pragmatic, and able to make pretty good informed choices about what is important in their lives.

Republicans convinced that Clinton hypnotized the voters, Democrats convinced that Bush is a Hitler-like demogogue…these are typically the people with the most dangerous political views. Why? Because they fundamentally do not believe in democracy. People who believe that voters are sheep are willing to use dirty tricks, lie, cheat, steal, and in extreme cases engage in genocide to get their political agenda enacted.

Hijack over.

How exactly is this memo fundamentally different that what Bush says in public? I know some people have the impression that Bush gave the impression that the invasion of Iraq would be easy. But hasn’t he said that it would be difficult and dangerous, but worth it?

And the metrics issue. Well, what is the objection there? Do YOU have good metrics on whether we are winning or losing the War On Terror ™? No, you just have a subjective opinion, like everyone else. Right now the media is focusing on US bodycounts as a metric for whether the war is going well. But is that a reliable metric? Obviously not.

I still don’t understand why people think the memo is something they can use to beat up the Bush administration. Unless the leak was planned, Bush’s biggest problem is that his people can’t keep their mouths shut to the press. Is that good or bad?

#4

Bush says we’re winning the war on terror (though much remains to be done); this memo says that not only do we not know if we’re winning or losing, we lack any real way to tell which is which. That strikes me as just a bit different.

#5

The connections I expect will be made. Let me go ahead and save those who would, the trouble.

That being done, and now out of the way, I find it commendable that the long term outlook and planning is being considered. I have to approve of that. Way to go Rumsfeld. Next invasion, let’s plan fro and have public debate over the costs and long-term aspects BEFORE we commit our troops, okay?

#6

The cow’s out of the barn, and now Rummy wants to hear his options on how to close the barn door.

Good thing he’s planning ahead, isn’t it?

#7

So, was this memo leaked?

If it was, I am going to have a good long laugh over it.

#8

The use of emoticons really adds a certain gravitas to the OP.

Rummy is doing exactly what he is paid to do. What is the problem here? Does Chaosgod believe that we should move ahead on our current course, incapable of adapting to changing situations?

#9

Why, Heavens no! We want an administration in tune with changing circumstances, and disinclined to barge ahead on some preconcieved agenda when information and intelligence indicates otherwise.

Quite so, friend Brutus, quite so.

#10 
Instead of criticizing... why don't you tell us why US voters or for that matter any common voter are not sheep ? People who elect leaders on hazy notions of morality or of likeability. High percentage of americans (60%+) think Saddam was involved in 9/11... never mind more complicated internal economic issues. Maybe your defending your own kind... but I think voters are sheep... sheep whose decision has to be respected thou.

 Well if Rummy can't measure sucess in a "war" how does he know he is doing the right thing ? Before invading Iraq he should have some way of determining that the US was going the right way... and WORSE... he seems to think that a body count of sorts can determine sucess.
#11

This memo was nothing more than an internal analysis piece. It’s Rumsfeld’s JOB to make sure that he keeps his eye on the ball and makes sure no one gets complacent. He would be incompetent if he didn’t send out memos like this on a routine basis.

There was nothing wrong with the memo, and the memo doesn’t contradict anything the Bush administration is saying. Bush has NEVER said this was going to be easy, or cheap. He has always maintained right from day one that this was going to be a long, hard task. Even his ‘congratulations’ speech on the aircraft carrier was full of words about how much work there was left to be done, and how much danger there was, etc.

The real problem here is the leak. This is the kind of memo that should NEVER be leaked, because it gives insight into preparations the military may be making in a time of conflict. The reporter who received the leak should be subpoena’d, and the leaker should be punished.

#12

Actually this memo wasn’t internal. He gave it to several congressmen.

I’d say this is basically him just wanting to stay relevant. After Rice edged him out in that new Iraqi planning thing he wants to say “I’ll politically hurt you if you don’t go my way, and I know what I am talking about”.

#13

To be more clear on the whole not being leaked thing. Rumsfield sent it to 4 guys in congress. So essentially it was leaked by him, but you could say that he just didn’t want them to send it to everybody else.

#14

President Bush**did* say that we’re winning the war on terrorism. Its nice to know that at last this administration is learning the difference between the War On Terror and the War On Iraq. We’re winning the former and not real sure about the latter. And don’t worry about the leak, Sam Stone. Ashcroft’s gonna get right to the bottom of this.

#15

“Saddam is much weaker than we think he is. He’s weaker militarily. We know he’s got about a third of what he had in 1991.”

"But it’s a house of cards. He rules by fear because he knows there is no underlying support. Support for Saddam, including within his military organization, will collapse at the first whiff of gunpowder. "

  • Richard Perle
    "I believe demolishing Hussein’s military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk. Let me give simple, responsible reasons: (1) It was a cakewalk last time; (2) they’ve become much weaker; (3) we’ve become much stronger; and (4) now we’re playing for keeps.
  • Ken Adelman

There are a lot of other quotes out there, but these two are just a sampling of the statements that were made to convince the people that this would be quick and easy.

#16

Actually apparently the memo is public knowledge and was before Rumsfield sent it to those congressmen.

#17

WOW, I actually agree with Rumsfeld on something!

I’ve repeatedly asked for proof (“metrics”) and have only been pooh-poohed by certain members of this board. Glad to know somebody on the right and specifically Bush Admin has even bothered to consider this important.

However, while admission is the first step on the road to recovery, I can’t really understand why it took so long for it to cross their apparent pea-brains.

re: disagreement with Bush in public

What Bush doesn’t do or say is provide some sort of measurable way to assess what he spews. Rumsfeld has acknowledged that this is important instead of just glibly assuming it was the right choice from the get-go.

#18

At least I’m not faking “gravitas” with every sentence I utter, like mister GWB.

Ok, so Rumsfeld admits what was pretty obvious: This unprovoked war has resulted in a vicious cycle of violence and hatred.

Have we learned the lesson then?

Probably not.

#19

Chaosgod, where exactly does Rumsfeld admit: “This unprovoked war has resulted in a vicious cycle of violence and hatred”?

It seems to me he admits no such thing.

The fact that we lack good metrics to whether the war has resulted in a vicious cycle of violence and hatred is no reason to think the war actually HAS resulted in a VCOVAH. It could easily be that this unprovoked war has circumvented many VCOVAHs. Or not. The point is that how exactly are we supposed to measure it. You think the war was a failure. George Bush doesn’t. As of now, its a matter of opinion.

Oh, and Rashak Mani? Please provide some sort of evidence for: “He seems to think that a body count of sorts can determine sucess.”

Oh, and cmason32? Exactly how long did Saddam’s military resistance last? Remember how we rolled into Baghdad when you all were predicting another Stalingrad? The fact is that Saddam’s military WAS weak. Conquering Iraq WAS easy.

#20

Actually, the memo heartens me. I thought everyone up there was popping oxycontins with Rush. Seriously, that memo sounds like a sobering realistic look at the war against radical Islamism and rogue states (I like to mention Saudi Arabia, as Bush downplays their key role in all of this) supported by thousands of “schools” that don’t teach much in the way of academics.

Iraq was a brutal mess, with state torture and mass killings the only things that kept a fragile “peace” between groups that have murderous rage at one another. Not counting the mass killings that were just for intimidation purposes, fun, or because Uday wanted a boyfriend of a potential conquest eliminated.

After that many years of brutal oppression, I wonder how seriously mentally ill many Iraqis are? In this country we rush in teams of grief counselors for kids who’ve seen one shooting. What the hell do you do for a whole nation where shootings and torture were the coin of the realm? The 15th Psychiatric Division?

If you do some study as to the psychological effects of long-term state brutality, Rumsfeld was just being honest. Iraqis ask US troops if they can rebuild neighborhood schools. The officers have to explain, “of course, it’s your school and country.” That’s how messed up and cowed years of Saddam has made them.

Then you have the opposite effect, the worst criminals see it as an opportunity to do whatever they want. Saddam having released the street criminals as a way to create chaos was a nice gesture. Castro and Saddam have a lot in common.