Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al.: These Bastards Did it Before!

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

As elucidator said recently, “Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to make the rest of us repeat it.”

In an interview on NPR, with Barry Werth, author of “31 Days: The Crisis That Gave Us the Government We Have Today,” I learned that in the 70s, a group of conservatives believed that the CIA was underestimating the threat posed by Russia. They put together an outside group, known as “Team B” to review intelligence information, who came to very different conclusions about what Russia was up to, such as (from Wikipedia):

Team B came to the conclusion that the Soviets had developed new weapons of mass destruction such as a nuclear-armed submarine fleet that used a sonar system that didn’t depend on sound and was, thus, undetectable by contemporary Western technology. When the CIA argued that the economic chaos in the Soviet Union was hindering their ability to produce an air defense system, Team B countered by arguing that the Soviet Union was trying to deceive the American public when in fact their air defense system worked perfectly. Some members were even considering promoting a first strike policy against the U.S.S.R.[5][6][7]

Donald Rumsfeld began to make speeches arguing that the Soviets were ignoring Kissinger’s treaties and secretly building up their weapons, with the intention of attacking America. The CIA strongly disagreed with Team B’s assessments, calling Rumsfeld’s position a “complete fiction” and pointing out that the Soviet Union was disintegrating from within, could barely afford to feed their own people, and would collapse within a decade or two if simply left alone.[7] A top CIA analyst called it “a kangaroo court of outside critics all picked from one point of view.”[4]

According to Werth, essentially none of the claims of Team B ended up being true. However, just a few years ago, when Bush’s Office of Special Plans, involving some of the same people, began doing the same thing with intelligence about Iraq, I don’t recall hearing a word about the history of Team B. Not one.

Goddamn it, what is the purpose of a free press? Wouldn’t it have been helpful to know that these fuckers did the same thing 30 years ago, were just as wrong, and the only difference this time was that they got someone to put their “first strike” plans into action?

Do not forget this when the conservatives arise again, making claims of grave and gathering threats in the future.

[lowbrass]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Wouldn’t it have been helpful to know that these fuckers did the same thing 30 years ago, were just as wrong, and the only difference this time was that they got someone to put their “first strike” plans into action?

Why? There was copious evidence that the Iraq intel was bullshit, and enough people ignored it. It would have just been one more thing to ignore. Wouldn’t have helped.

[Merijeek]

@lowbrass

Why? There was copious evidence that the Iraq intel was bullshit, and enough people ignored it. It would have just been one more thing to ignore. Wouldn’t have helped.

And lowbrass gets the cupie doll!

The “free press” is motivated by profit. What’s going to sell more papers? A story about how “Saddam’s Nuclear Anthrax Drones Of Doom”, or “Iraq Still Not A Threat”.

-Joe

[kaylasdad99]

Kewpie.

That’s the only correction I have to offer at this time…

[JimSox5]

I think a story that focused more on the paranoia of those in office would sell quite a few papers, too. “Iraq Still Not a Threat” won’t generate much interest, but something more eye-catching (forgive me, I never get to pick out the headlines for the newspaper I work for [and for good reason]) like “Is Rumsfeld Insane?” would. And put it on the front page, don’t bury it in the opinion section.

[JimSox5]

Sorry to post again so quickly, but I forgot to address lowbrass’s post. Even on the front page, I’m afraid, the majority of those who support this current administration would just go on about the “damn liberal media.”

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

I’m sure all of this cynicism is well-deserved and accurate. Still, I would have liked to have the knowledge that these same people did the same thing three decades ago and were dead wrong. But, having already believed that the OSP was just a bunch of cooks ginning up some bullshit, I guess it wouldn’t have done much for me to have known about Team B either.

I wonder, generally speaking, at what point it is of no use to have further historical information? Perhaps the saying should go, “Those who forget some of the lessons of history are doomed to repeat some of it.”

[JimSox5]

Well, I think (maybe I’m saying this in optimism as a history major) still value in the saying, because not everybody will be so willfully ignorant. But, from what we’ve seen in recent days, it looks like there are too many who are too stubborn otherwise ignorant to see what is right in front of them. We need more open, honest debate in this country. An informed and educated public is essential for a working democracy/republic, but I, for one, have absolutely no idea how we should go about forcing people to think critically about what they are being presented.

[tagos]

@Hentor the Barbarian

I’m sure all of this cynicism is well-deserved and accurate. Still, I would have liked to have the knowledge that these same people did the same thing three decades ago and were dead wrong. But, having already believed that the OSP was just a bunch of cooks ginning up some bullshit, I guess it wouldn’t have done much for me to have known about Team B either.

I wonder, generally speaking, at what point it is of no use to have further historical information? Perhaps the saying should go, “Those who forget some of the lessons of history are doomed to repeat some of it.”

They are still doing over Iran

On CNN, New Yorker journalist Seymour Hersh reported that a new CIA assessment concludes that “there’s no evidence Iran is doing anything that puts them close to a bomb.” Despite the intelligence agency’s conclusion, Hersh reports that the White House is still aggressively moving ahead with preparations for a military conflict with Iran.

As part of the White House’s preparations for Iran, Hersh says President Bush and Vice President Cheney are “stovepiping” intelligence and keeping information provided by the Israelis hidden from the CIA.

The Israelis are telling the White House, according to Hersh’s new article “The Next Act,” that they have a reliable agent inside Iran who reports that the nation is working on a trigger for a bomb. “Of course the people in the CIA want to know who [the agent] is, obviously,” Hersh said. “They certainly want to know what other evidence he has of actual making of a warhead. This is the internecine fight that’s going on — the same fight, by the way, that we had before Iraq.” Watch it:

Hersh’s article suggests a similar breakdown in the intelligence process is happening with regards to Iran and may open to door to possible intelligence manipulation.
[/QUOTE]

[Chefguy]

@Hentor the Barbarian

As elucidator said recently, “Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to make the rest of us repeat it.”

In an interview on NPR, with Barry Werth, author of “31 Days: The Crisis That Gave Us the Government We Have Today,” I learned that in the 70s, a group of conservatives believed that the CIA was underestimating the threat posed by Russia. They put together an outside group, known as “Team B” to review intelligence information, who came to very different conclusions about what Russia was up to, such as (from Wikipedia):

According to Werth, essentially none of the claims of Team B ended up being true. However, just a few years ago, when Bush’s Office of Special Plans, involving some of the same people, began doing the same thing with intelligence about Iraq, I don’t recall hearing a word about the history of Team B. Not one.

Goddamn it, what is the purpose of a free press? Wouldn’t it have been helpful to know that these fuckers did the same thing 30 years ago, were just as wrong, and the only difference this time was that they got someone to put their “first strike” plans into action?

Do not forget this when the conservatives arise again, making claims of grave and gathering threats in the future.

The information was shouted out by many from the left. The fact that these people had a plan in place for many years, if not decades, before W made it into office was well known. Dubya is just the right lackey for this cabal to manipulate. Regrettably, few listened and fewer cared, and we are paying for it. Combine this hawkish control of the White House with the disastrous foreign and economic “policies” of GW, and you have a country on the brink of disaster.

[Sean_Factotum]

Speaking of those ignoring history are doomed to repeat it, any body here ever read about Britian’s troubles in Iraq at the turn of the 20th century?

There’s a lot of things that the current Powers That Be have tried to ignore by just wishing otherwise.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Chefguy

The information was shouted out by many from the left. The fact that these people had a plan in place for many years, if not decades, before W made it into office was well known. Dubya is just the right lackey for this cabal to manipulate. Regrettably, few listened and fewer cared, and we are paying for it. Combine this hawkish control of the White House with the disastrous foreign and economic “policies” of GW, and you have a country on the brink of disaster.

I know that the interests and intentions of the PNAC were well-known and discussed. I didn’t know that some of those same people had a history of stove-piping intelligence with remarkably little accuracy for the purpose of claiming that the existing intel groups were underestimating a threat.

And I spend way too much time on left wing blogs to have missed anything being shouted about Team B specifically.

[Chefguy]

@Hentor the Barbarian

I know that the interests and intentions of the PNAC were well-known and discussed. I didn’t know that some of those same people had a history of stove-piping intelligence with remarkably little accuracy for the purpose of claiming that the existing intel groups were underestimating a threat.

And I spend way too much time on left wing blogs to have missed anything being shouted about Team B specifically.

Ah, sorry. I was being general and you were being specific.