Running cable - please help before something *else* gets stuck in our wall?

[ImGravity]

@Chief Pedant

Start in the ceiling. Drill a small hole with an ordinary bit through the ceiling drywall near the exterior wall. This is just so you know exactly where you are working.

Try to center your work between two studs. Use a studfinder (a real one; not the kind that just looks for nails).

No need. Using a tape measure, I determined which 4x8 sheet of plywood in the attic was the proper one to pull up. I sawed as described in a previous post, then began pulling nails. As this panel is directly beneath the only window in the attic, and as the previous owner clearly left the window open during rainstorms on more than one occasion, this panel was already in poor shape, with water stains, some swelling damage, and many nails too rusty to do anything but pop their heads when politely engaged with a nail puller.

In other words, the plywood should thank me for pulling it up. Regardless of the whole cable issue.

As someone posited, the fish was indeed doubled, tripled, and bent around between the two joists and the ceiling of the bedroom below for about 20 feet worth of cable. As DefyingGravity noted, I was not aware it was possible to bend a fish tape that badly. Literally, at one point there was a 90 degree dogleg left, 3 inches of tape, then a 90 degree dogleg back to the right, so firmly created that I had to straighten it by hand before it would come near the exit hole without shying back.

But I got the fish tape back within 5 minutes, which I consider at least a minor victory.

In any case, back to knowing where I was - after pulling up the plywood and pulling back the insulation between the last joist and the wall, I found (aside from lots of, ah, kinky fish tape) the romex from the outlet below ascending up, through a spaded hole, and across the attic. I should point out, when I began, I chose to place the drop plate location on the other side of the stud that the power outlet used for this computer was located. I couldn’t find my stud finder (my workshop is a huge, huge, huge mess) so I assumed that (naturally) the outlet box was nailed to a stud, then I knocked on the drywall an inch up and to either side and made my best guess as to where the stud was by sound. I cautiously made a small hole on my best guess as to the other side of that stud, cautiously poked my finger in to verify my guess, and upon finding I was correct pretended I’d been sure all along of how brilliantly right I was.

The point is, seeing the romex come up tells me yes, this is the right place and hey, if I was lucky I should find my drill bit a few inches to the right.

No such luck yet, as such. per se.

There is a 2x6 or 2x8 board that adjoins the outer wall of the house, then the whaddayacallum, stringers?, that run perpendicular to the joists and to which the ceiling gypsum board is connected to, then the gypsum.

The romex is drilled through that board. (Well, the hole through which the romex runs, but you know what I meant). My drill bit is not. It may or may not be poking around somewhere below the board, visible poking through the gypsum, but I could not easily see, and before I could go look for my auto repair mirror (you know, the little mirror on the extending rod that you can swivel around on a ball joint) DefyingGravity got back home with Wendy’s. So I stopped working, and haven’t gotten back to it yet (I’m currently on jury duty, which is less amenable to weak excuses than work is).

@Chief Pedant

From the attic side use the 5/8 spade bit to drill through the top plate. This is usually two stacked 2x4s. Drill the hole on the side of the top plate toward the interior wall. You want access to the plane between the drywall and the insulation backing.

Yeah, this is my plan, as soon as I verify I can’t just grab the old bit. And as soon as I find my spade bit. You won’t believe this, but I had it 3 or 4 days ago, and have since, ah, lost it. In my workshop, not in a wall, I swear.

@Chief Pedant

Use the studfinder to find the (putative) horizontal fireblock.

Excellent idea. And I just found my stud finder, while looking for my spade bit. I’m still not convinced there’s a solid fire block versus the ‘X’ stringers I’ve seen elsewhere, though.

@Chief Pedant

Use the fishtape from the attic side and thread it in the plane behind the drywall but in front of the insulation, dropping it directly down so you can find it in the cutout hole above the fireblock. Tie a string or wire to the fishtape and pull the string back up into the attic.

Right. That was my plan, once my drill had neatly punched a hole into the attic. I had a coil of pull string standing by for use.

@Chief Pedant

Finish the terminus of each end of the cable and get the little woman online.

Careful, she can hear you.

@Chief Pedant

Figure out a way to get sex out of it–Congratulatory, Make-up (see above) or Gratitude sex might all be in order here, depending on the circumstances.

I WOULD NEVER TREAT MY WIFE WITH SUCH DISRESPECT AS TO IMPLY THAT SEX WAS A GOOD TO BE BARTERED FOR WITH MY SERVICES, WHICH BY RIGHTS ARE HERS IN ANY CASE.

(She can hear me, too)

@Chief Pedant

Leave whatever that thing was you left in the wall, in the wall.

If I so much as sniff it, it will be mine; oh yes, it will be mine.

@Chief Pedant

Post back with your results (of the project; not the sex).

I did comment to SWMBO that, given the expanding scope and difficulty of both this task and various other honeydo items handled over the weekend, that I felt my contract required renegotiation, and that we had passed the point of deserving good sex and were well into the area of deserving a threesome.

A) She was not amused

B) Having said that, are you still not interested in hearing if I make any progress fishing that bit out of the wall?

[ImGravity]

@gotpasswords

Not wanting to be a wet blanket, but…

You are not.

@gotpasswords

You’re in violation of electrical code, unless your network wire has 600-volt rated insulation. It’s generally a violation to mix Class 2 cabling with power in a wiring box, conduit or raceway.

I was not aware of that. I am glad to be made aware of that, and will initiate a task to run a new conduit dedicated to data.

I’m one of those (rare?) people who feels that electrical code is actually a well-grounded (no pun intended) set of rules intended to avoid what have already been found to be actual dangerous issues in the real world.

@gotpasswords

I’m also concerned about the Romex and (just guessing at what was used for the subpanel) the SER cable being in a conduit. Were these cables properly derated to compensate for pipe fill percentage and the heat gain caused by being in a conduit?

I actually only understand 3 out of every 4 words you use in this paragraph, however, I’m inclined to believe that since the house passed initial inspection (and, I’ve been told by neighbors, the inspector was actively hassling the homeowner on minor issues due to some sort of personal conflict, and therefore unlikely to overlook actual problems), and since I’ve had multiple electricians in working on both the panel and subpanel without any comments on this (and I tend to hover and ask polite questions out of curiosity while people work), that it’s probably okay.

Also, in calling it ‘romex’ I may easily be incorrect. If there is a more correct form of wire which comes in a similarly sized sleeve, it’s probably that.

[ImGravity]

@cantara

Perhaps I am missing the point of getting the computer hard-wired, but wouldn’t wireless be a better idea?

Yes, in the same sense that Windows is a solid, enterprise class modern operating system which is secure and reliable, compared to a time-tested ideal such as Unix.

(Which is to say, no, because it just isn’t.)

[ImGravity]

@Uncommon Sense

I presume you have a nearby corner that may only be a few feet from her desk? Either to the left or to the right of the workstation? One of those corners is going to have an inside wall abutted to it. I’d fish that wall 1000 times before I attempted to do the outside one. Right now, the only thing you’re out is an extension bit. Chalk it up to being a stupid dummy and fish the inside wall willya?!

There is, in fact, an interior wall (walk-in closet wall) about 3 feet to the right.

However, I refuse to be bullied by harsh reality. I have made a 1x2 hole in the wall for the outlet jack. I shall reach that hole. No other outcome is acceptable.

[ImGravity]

@DefyingGravity

It works great until hubby walks in and says “HON-ey, I can’t find my SCREW driverrrrrrr!!! Where did you PUT IT?”

Folks, let me put this into proper context:

DG: I can’t find my car keys.

IG: They’re in your pocketbook.

DG: Could you look on the island?

IG: They’re in your pocketbook.

DG: No, I looked there, could you look?

IG: They’re in your pocketbook, but I’ll look.

DG: [5 minutes later] I haven’t found them yet, were they on the island?

IG: No. I looked. They’re in your pocketbook.

DG: No, I looked there. Can you go check the pockets on my jacket?

IG: Sure, but they’re in your pocketbook.

DG: [another 5 minutes pass] Help! Where could they be? Who drove the car last? I’m going to be late!

(Ed. Note: she meant ‘lateR than USUAL’)

IG: They’re in your pocketbook.

DG: No! I emptied that whole compartment!

IG: They’re in your pocketbook. Check again.

DG: [2 minute delay] Oh. Hey, you’re right, they were in my pocketbook.

Don’t even get me started on TV remotes.

[ImGravity]

@KlondikeGeoff

Er, Defying, the statement “three are triplets” leaves me wondering if two could be triplets? Or four? Did you fall in a pool of redundancy?

While awkward, I don’t believe she did.

It might be reworded “I have four children, three of whom are the same age (that is to say, triplets, which many people consider to be of notable impact when evaluating the load of parenting).”

In other words, “three are triplets” is okay when the alternative is “three are spread out with two-year age differences between them.”

Or so I think. Chief Pedant?

[ImGravity]

@DefyingGravity

I know when he’s roasting because he has the most god-awful roaster in the world. When it’s roasting time he goes into the bathroom, shuts the door, opens the window, and then turns it on. Horrible sounds like the wailing of souls in purgatory commence, and a foul odor similar to that of burning rubber tires emits straight through the bathroom door and fills the house.

In fact, for the last 6 months or so I have been roasting on the back deck, in order to avoid this problem.

Not that anyone notices. The squeaky wheel gets bashed repeatedly, while the rest are ignored and left without oiling or maintenance, so that they can be bashed in turn when they begin to squeak.

[ImGravity]

@t-bonham@scc.net

Well, whether he notices the difference or not, he would claim to believe you and drink it without complaining.

Well… no.

When I am too (tired, sick, covered with children, or otherwise bound) to make coffee, I will pleadingly ask her to make coffee, and walk her carefully through the steps required to find beans, grind beans, and assemble the drip pot (sorry, the vacuum pot is only at work). And once she delivers said coffee, I am sure to not only drink without complaint, but to praise her efforts, no matter how strong or weak the result is.

Attempting to insert inferior coffee, however, would be a completely different matter. You’ve got to stamp that out hard from the start.

In a similar vein, I have spent considerable time trying to subtly influence my in-law’s brewing methods without causing offense. I have only recently convinced them that yes, Virginia, having a gold filter means never having to line it with a paper filter again.

@t-bonham@scc.net

That’s one of the ways that he’s been able to stay married for that long!

That and my shockingly good looks, Adonis-like physique, razor-sharp wit, remarkably diverse skills in household and automotive tasks, financial stability, and unbelievably strong prediliction for cxxxxxxxxxx.

And modesty.

[Chief_Pedant]

@ImGravity

While awkward, I don’t believe she did.

It might be reworded “I have four children, three of whom are the same age (that is to say, triplets, which many people consider to be of notable impact when evaluating the load of parenting).”

In other words, “three are triplets” is okay when the alternative is “three are spread out with two-year age differences between them.”

Or so I think. Chief Pedant?

I use “Chief Pedant” as self-deprecating mockery, although it is also intended to be an editorial on the inconsistencies of the English language. My personal position is that “correct” usage ultimately follows the polloi, like it or not. The masses tend to drive the evolution of language and eventually a few of them become educated enough to be seen as the Arbiters; of these there are those who cling to The Rules We Used To Have (and Here Is My Cite), and there is another set who plead Common Usage As Long As It is Clear. While I am annoyed by the prevalence of incompetent common usage, I do not generally take positions on Correct Usage until I find out what rules we are playing by to define it…in the end clarity trumps pedantry (although pedantry is more fun, and uneducated usage is less likely to be clear).

I skipped over the posts about your children as I am uninterested in children anymore, having escorted my own into adulthood. They are now some of my best friends. You have a set of triplets and a singleton, as I understand it. I think the math is simple enough to say, “We have a 5-year-old son and 3-year-old triplets,” but saying “Three are triplets” is perfectly clear, reasonably concise and emphasizes (by redundancy) the significance of having three of the same age.

Back to the Project: As I see it, this project has transitioned from a cable run to a Mission. The Mission is to run the cable through the exterior wall, to a specific cutout. It has become less relevant that the Mission may have been a Bad Idea. The cutout has been made, and leaving it unexited by the cable strung through the exterior wall will be Failure. Success is no longer defined simply by getting your computer online with the cable (neatly) routed somewhere.

I don’t think I have any more advice, sadly. My main emphasis for your Mission is to thread only in the plane between the drywall and the insulation. If you have Romex, it’s even better if you can stay in the plane between the drywall and the plastic vapor barrier (if there is one). This is because Romex-wired houses have the Romex running at all sorts of angles in the stud spaces, unlike conduit, which tends to be vertical or horizontal. The insulation also presses the romex against the drywall and makes it hard to get past with a blind threading. It’s therefore easy to get a fishtape tangled up in the Romex; keeping to the other side of the vapor barrier will make this less likely. Finding that exact plane, is of course tricky.

I understand your reluctance to cut the drywall and repair it. However a series of small cutouts is easily repaired without the need for tape, mud and feathering. If it’s a small hole into an open cavity, use a section of a paint-stirring stick as a backing; hot-melt glue this across the back of the opening and then hot-melt glue the cutout onto the stick. Trim off the ragged edges of the cutout piece and the hole. This will leave a stable and clean crack that can be repaired with a single application of spackle which fills only the crack and doesn’t leave a raised surface requiring feathering and sanding. In the worst-case scenario you made need several of these to work your way down the exterior wall.

Is someone feeding the children while you are distracted with this needlessly complicated Mission? Even though I no longer like children, I do have some sense of duty toward them…

[DefyingGravity]

Minor Detail

One thing that my other half has neglected to mention in his pursuit of the Mission is that I have decided to move my computer to another room now, making that room into a small office for me. That room is right next to the wireless AP.

Therefore, the need to run cable is eliminated.

However, this has made no alteration in Greg’s determination to get that cable run.

I do not understand this. It is like a vendetta. Is this a male thing or should I call a psychiatrist?

[Anaamika]

You guys are hilarious. You should have your own show or something.

[mangeorge]

@DefyingGravity

Minor Detail

One thing that my other half has neglected to mention in his pursuit of the Mission is that I have decided to move my computer to another room now, making that room into a small office for me. That room is right next to the wireless AP.

Therefore, the need to run cable is eliminated.

However, this has made no alteration in Greg’s determination to get that cable run.

I do not understand this. It is like a vendetta. Is this a male thing or should I call a psychiatrist?

You might need it someday.
It’ll increase the value of the house.
The holes are already there.
Gotta find that drill bit.
So, it makes perfect sense to me.

[Rick]

@DefyingGravity

Minor Detail

One thing that my other half has neglected to mention in his pursuit of the Mission is that I have decided to move my computer to another room now, making that room into a small office for me. That room is right next to the wireless AP.

Therefore, the need to run cable is eliminated.

However, this has made no alteration in Greg’s determination to get that cable run.

I do not understand this. It is like a vendetta. Is this a male thing or should I call a psychiatrist?

Are you aware that this is grounds for divorce in 17 states?

[Uncommon_Sense]

@DefyingGravity

Minor Detail

One thing that my other half has neglected to mention in his pursuit of the Mission is that I have decided to move my computer to another room now, making that room into a small office for me. That room is right next to the wireless AP.

Therefore, the need to run cable is eliminated.

Dynamite!!

However, this has made no alteration in Greg’s determination to get that cable run.

I do not understand this. It is like a vendetta. Is this a male thing or should I call a psychiatrist?

No, seriously, you should hide all the dynamite.

[GargoyleWB]

I may be late to the game but…

I have a very old house that was self-built buy some (I assume) PTS Great War survivor in the early 19xx’s, since it seems like it was built to survive Big Bertha shelling. I am steadily upgrading the wiring and creating a more robust power routing since our Nintendo Wii tipped the fragile power balance and melted a wire that cast our whole house into blackness and started a smelly wall fire. But I digress…

Some painful routing lessons I’ve learned:

Laser penlights are your friend. I have been able to save countless hours of turning my house into the Sea of Holes segment from Yellow Submarine. The light from a flashlight dies three feet away, but you can see red laser reflections even around internal corners so you know what is getting in the way.

There were trees that grew in olden times that are stronger than current drill bit technology. There is this beam in my house that I spent over an hour of horrid squealing and smoking, swapped three drill bits, and only made it a half-inch into the beam. This was just my tap bit. You should have seen how it laughed at my spade bit, the bit scratched a faint round circle on top of the beam and decided it didn’t need its teeth anymore, life was better spent as worn, shiny, and smooth.

There are people (my insane war vet who built his Kaizer-proof Zeppelin-impervious bunker) who felt plaster just wasn’t good enough. All of my interior walls consist of a layer of wood board, topped with plaster, topped with steel mesh screen, and finished with plaster. Every time I cut an access hole, I send a dozen rip and jig blades to heaven.

Always diagram and map out your final wiring. Your tired weary brain won’t remember what you did six months later. Otherwise, your fragile he-man contruction ego will be shattered in the future by one casual snip of a wire cutter, on a wire you could have sworn wasn’t needed and wasn’t something that you had put in…

I feel your pain

[KlondikeGeoff]

@GargoyleWB

There were trees that grew in olden times that are stronger than current drill bit technology. There is this beam in my house that I spent over an hour of horrid squealing and smoking, swapped three drill bits, and only made it a half-inch into the beam.

Yeah, what is it with these beams? Did they have some process to anneal or otherwise harden them? Is it just Old Man Time that makes them like steel? Or, as you suggest, did they grow some sort of ironwood trees back then?

I mean, these damn things in my house were hand-hewn with, I assume, an adz, so why now are they hard enough to eat drill bits?

[Chief_Pedant]

@DefyingGravity

Minor Detail

One thing that my other half has neglected to mention in his pursuit of the Mission is that I have decided to move my computer to another room now, making that room into a small office for me. That room is right next to the wireless AP.

Therefore, the need to run cable is eliminated.

However, this has made no alteration in Greg’s determination to get that cable run.

I do not understand this. It is like a vendetta. Is this a male thing or should I call a psychiatrist?

If **ImGravity ** cuts and runs now, the terrorist will have won. Same ezzack psychology.

Whether or not the original Mission was a Bad Idea, or has been rendered irrelevant, is irrelevant. Even if ImGravity patches the original putative outlet, he’ll know it’s there, and that Tell-Tale Beating Heart…I mean Hole…will haunt him. You must stop defying him.

[brewha]

Admitting defeat is an unacceptable end to this story.

I don’t care if ImGravity wrestles with the cable for months or if he succeeds on his next attempt - failure is not an option.

Oh yeah Greg, you really should subscribe.

[mangeorge]

@ImGravity

I roast (DefyingGravity doesn’t drink coffee). I roast my own, I take a batch at a time into work with me, where I use a hand grinder and a Bodum electric vacuum pot to achieve the perfect cup.

When I recently started a new job, I made a point of offering cups to numerous neighbors, so as to ensure that no one handed me in to Facilities.

I started out with a WhirlyPop, but soon went through a couple electric roasters. I now use my iRoast, which does pretty good. I’m afraid it’s on it’s last legs, but we’ll see. I want one of those Hot Top drum roasters at Sweet Maria’s, but the price is kinda scary. I also use a hand grinder.
Right now I’m roasting a batch of Ethiopia idido misty valley. Good stuff. Organic.
Too bad about DG’s distaste for coffee.
Oh, well.

[mangeorge]

Once in a while we manly men must link arms and defy the wily wiles of the, ahem, “weaker” sex.
I say “pull your cable and find that dang bit.”
We got your back, Greg.
Hi DG.