Running cable - please help before something *else* gets stuck in our wall?

Factual Questions
1

Hi everyone,

My husband is a brilliant security/network architect, and has our whole house of computers (2 personal desktops, 3 laptops, and about 40K servers and whatnot on racks in the basement) wired up and configured to his liking, and they reach the internet via a hub and wireless cards in all the computers.

Except for my desktop; it’s located in the far end of the house from the hub and despite trying range extenders, etc., we (he) decided that it was going to have to be directly wired into the ethernet. We just had to run cable, and plug it in.

Three years later, after a lot of nagging or gentle bi-yearly reminders, depending on who is telling this story, the running of cable commenced last night. We ran cable from the Great Hub Of Power in the basement, up through three floors to the attic. In the attic he planned on running the wire down through the bedroom wall (an exterior wall) and out right behind my computer. Simple!

So today he took what I have since learned is a drill with a special drill bit that expands to something like 12 feet and is in two pieces that connect in the middle, and drilled a hole up from the bedroom into the attic. He stationed me in the attic to watch for the drill emerging at a precise spot. However, no drill emerged and very unhappy sounds suddenly came out of the drill, and he was then unable to drill forward or reverse it backwards.

I was then sent outside in the Nor’easter to see if he had accidentally drilled out through the side of the house. He hadn’t. I was sent to the attic to look “more thoroughly” for the drill tip. I swept legions of dead wasps from the summer out of the way and investigated but no drill, just lots of nails.

Then he (his name is Greg, I might as well use it) made the rather unhappy discovery that the extendable drill had actually separated at the midway point, and while he could remove the bottom section, the top section was embedded in the wall, about 2 feet up.

Greg said a lot of really bad words for awhile, stomped around the house in a ritual pattern, and then decided to screw the drill and sent me back up to the attic with something called “fish tape”. I thought initially it had something to do with fish (I don’t normally do this kind of thing, I’m not as dumb as I’m starting to sound, I have degrees and everything). Instead it was the wire spool that you send down holes.

Greg drilled a hole through the two inches of floor before you get to insulation, then instructed me to feed the fishtape through the hole and (presumably) down through the wall to where he could get it (he measured where this should be). So he sat in the bedroom and listened to the wall for 30 minutes while I fed fishtape down a reluctant wall. After a while I got suspicious, as it was only about 10 feet to the floor downstairs but I had fed at least 15-20. I was told politely to shut up and keep feeding.

After I fed enough to wrap our house several times, Greg came up to take over. He jiggled and joggled and curse and declared it was coiled up on itself somewhere. He then went to pull it out. I assume you can see where this is going.

Yeah, it got stuck too. Greg thinks it could be stuck on an electrical wire I don’t know why) and has now abandoned the fishwire and gone out for awhile. I asked what he would do next and got an answer that I probably shouldn’t type because there’s censors and standards of decency.

So that’s the situation: I have 6 feet of drill bit going up the wall, about 15 feet of fishtape going in some unknown pathway down the wall, both stuck firmly.

I also have no internet and I get the feeling that he’s going to come home talking about either a) some awesome tool that would fix the problem that he must buy or b) ways to boost the wireless signal again. something we spent about a year trying to do unsuccessfully.

I suggested he ask any of several people we know who have more experience with this sort of thing (Greg’s a kind of learn-by-doing type of person, often works out well, sometimes not-so-much).

He was really offended at the suggestion, and when I ventured that maybe if we Googled, someone else would have had the same problem, I was told that I was welcome to Google anything I wanted. I think that the male filter is translating “asking for help” into “admitting I don’t know what I’m doing and made a mistake and should be laughed at and mocked”.

So I’m posting this probably too long description of the problem while he’s out in the hope that among the many geniuses that reside here, there is someone that knows how we could do any of the following:

a) retrieve the drill bit section
b) retrieve the fishtape without burning down the house
c) any other suggestion for just getting me on the damn network.

I could talk now about the other project he’s doing today, involving wiring up some lights that should be working as he tested everything with a multimeter and everything tests fine, but none of the lights light, but I’ll leave it at that. If you have any ideas of how to troubleshoot that further as well, bring it on.

Life in the house is not happy at the moment - Greg is grumpy and probably feeling that he is not fulfiilling his male-husband-father-fixerofthings duties, my ADHD 7-year-old is running around yelling “BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP” ad nauseum and riling up my 3-year-old triplets, who are trying to systematically destroy the house and steal the Halloween candy.

Please help! I need sanity. I need internet more. My good soundcard is in the desktop and I can’t do Singsnap from my laptop. (google it, I’m tired of typing!)

Sorry for the length. Eagerly sitting here hitting refresh and waiting for words of wisdom.

Optimistic thanks in advance,
EmmaJane

2

About 1/3 to 1/2 up a stud wall is a fire stop. This is a 2X4 nailed horizontally across the studs. I suspect that Greg cut a hole into the wall near the floor and was drilling upward to the attic.
It sounds like the drill got though the fire stop and then separated before he got through the plate in the attic.
I suspect that when you drilled from the top to feed the fish tape, it got trapped above the fire stop.
If it were me, I would locate the fire stop (use a stud sensor) and then above that point, cut an access hole. At this point you should be able to recover the drill bit, and fish tape. You can then run the CAT 5 cable in the wall. When everything is wired patch the wall.
One word of warning. I have a funny feeling that your exterior wall has fiberglass insulation, and that insulation is now all fucked up from having a drill bit and 6 miles of fish tape stuffed into the cavity. If this is the case, it might be best to open up the wall from stud to stud, fire stop to ceiling to replace the insulation. The good news is patching a 16" X 4’ hole really isn’t that much harder than patching a 6" square hole.
Good luck

3

Many times walls have horizontal 2x4 blocking between studs or other obstructions that will bind up the fishtape. I’ve abandoned a few fishtapes (actually, portions of fishtapes that I’ve simply cut off) in walls. I’ve done my share of muttering.

If the pitch of the roof isn’t too steep and you are able to spot/locate the actual wall, you can use a hole saw and cut the top plate with a 2 inch hole saw. (Be careful! If you miss you’ll be drilling into the ceiling below) (because of space, that may require an angle head drill) I’ve been able to do that many times and actually look into the wall to see what’s there. The bigger the hole, the easier to fish.

It helps too, no matter the size of the hole) to put a flashlight into the [larger] hold and see if you can see the light on the other end. Nothing sucks more that spending an hour fishing a wall to find out the holes are are in different stud spaces.

I’d [temporarily, at least] forget about the tape/drill and figure a way to open the holes up a little. Downstairs the hole should be big enough to accomodate a “cut in handi box.” In the attic, use a hole saw or sawzall and open the top plate up if you’re able. (be careful to not cut existing 120V romex!)

There is no easy answer. I’ve fished for 2 solid hours to go through 6’ of wall. I’ve learned a few tricks here and there, but sometimes it’s time, effort, patience and muttering.

4

I’m with Rick on this one, just cut a hole and patch it afterwards. Not worth all the aggravation you might go through otherwise, and the insulation really does need to be fixed.

I must ask thought, why feed down from the attic? If the hub is in the basement anyway why not drill up through the wall plate and feed up, avoiding the firestop altogether?

5

Out of curiosity, why is the insulation so important? I understand that it provides warmth from the subarctic wintery cold, but if it’s mushed around a little bit, why is that a big deal?

Disclaimer: I ask merely for information.

Reason for Disclaimer: My husband tends to get irritable when I ask informational questions.

Well, I don’t know for sure, and Greg’s not back yet. My guess would be that since the bedroom is on the other end of the house from the basement server hub, and also is on the second floor of the house, it would be a pain to try to run cable from the basement ceiling up through the playroom wall above and then into the bedroom above that? I mean, look at the trouble we’re having just getting it through less than one room.

Does that mean that there is no firestops on the walls other than in the attic? Does the firestop run the length of the wall?

I am trying to learn things about wiring, electricity, plumbing, etc., because I am tired of having zero idea how to fix things around here. Thanks for putting up with my questions.

(and how does a piece of er, wood… help to stop a fire?)

Thanks,
EmmaJane

6

Makes me feel better about my fishtape. I was trying to replace the 2-wire run to my furnace with 3-wire, which required spanning a mere 5’. With my newly purchased reel and 5 minutes online on how to use it, I embarked on an afternoon of cursing.

After a few dozen attempts, I too managed to jam my fishtape in the wall, where the reel blocked the use of my thermostat for a few months. Every couple of days I’d heave mightily on it to no avail, until with winter approaching I cut it off with boltcutters this weekend and am pretending I never tried.

If I had matching paint (or didn’t mind repainting my living room anyway), I’d surely be with Rick and seenidog on this one. Patching drywall is a manly endeavour with equal opportunity for cursing but a higher probability of success. :slight_smile:

7

This sounds logical.

Asking in the spirit of knowing nothing about this, does opening up a 1.5 x 4 foot section of my bedroom wall involve sledgehammers, drywall everywhere, cats hiding under beds, swearing husbands, and 5 days of work? followed by a section of wall where it’s really obvious that the drywall has been replaced?

I just need to know what to expect so that if he does this I don’t walk in when he finishes and say “It’s not going to look lke THAT, is it?”

When he walks in (any minute, I hope) I’ll let him respond more intelligently to your suggestions.

Thanks!
EmmaJane

8

When Googling around to see if legions had simultaneously lost drill bits and fishtape in one wall in one hour (and found the solution to their removal), I found this:

http://www.farrellworlds.com/fishtape.html

I laughed myself sick, hope you like it. Basically a case of one nice guy looking at a job and saying “Well, that can’t be that hard, can it?”

EmmaJane

9

**DefyingGravity ** I missed the part about being second story. That makes it a bit tougher. I am a little confused. He is in the bedroom drilling up to the attic. Was this from the second story bedroom? Where did the hole start? next to the wall? or was this a first story bedroom aiming for the attic? I ask as I am imagining an angled approach to a square on problem, which would explain the need to see if the hole went outside. You mentioned that it should take about ten feet of fish tape to reach the target. That is about one story tall. I am just having problems visualizing what has happened.

10

Assuming that you have drywall and not lath and plaster patching a great big hole is really easier than patching a smallish hole.compare the two following procedures and you make up your mind.
To find and fix what is going on in the wall will require a hole of at least 6" square. (You can probably get by with a slightly smaller hole, but why fight it?) To patch that you will need to cut a couple of pieces of wood at least an inch or so longer than the hole is wide. Place one in the hole so that the ends extend past the hole on both sides and partially covers the hole. Secure it to the existing wall with a couple of drywall screws. Repeat with the other piece of wood. Cut a patch out of drywall slightly smaller than the hole. Screw it to the wood pieces. Patch and paint.
or
Locate the fire stop and the studs on each side of where you want the hole. Using a razor knife try to cut so that 1/2 of those pieces of wood are exposed. don’t sweat it if you don’t get exactly 1/2 of it exposed. If your husband lays it out carefully this isn’t hard to do. You just need enough to screw to when you patch it. Remove the drywall. If you didn’t fuck up the big piece of drywall taking it out, use it as a patch. If you did, go buy a piece of drywall. Cut to fit, and use screws to secure to the exposed wood. Patch and paint.
NOTE: if you have a spatter finish, or a textured finish finish, extra work will be involved in making it match.
About insulation Your comment about a Nor’easter makes me think it gets cold where you are. If the insulation is fucked up on that part of the wall, it will cause a cold spot. But hey, it’s your heating bill not mine. :smiley:

11

SWAG: It prevents the fire from using the stud space as a chimney of sorts. The fire would have to completely burn through the two by before it could propagate. Also, it allows less oxygen to either “chamber”, if a fire were to start in one.

From the basement ceiling to the second-floor floor.

12

I agree with the “rip up the drywall” crowd. And yes, nice big holes. Actually, you can cut a channe, stud center to stud center (16 inches)l from ceiling to floor all the way down, then have a pro fix it. Drywall work, unlike electronic cable work, is beneath a brilliant security/network architect anyway. Be sure to tell him that :wink:
Really, leave the difficult (dirty) stuff to th pros.
mangeorge, ex electrician.

13

Ever watch Bob Vila snake a wire on This Old House? What he does is, he’s where they start, and he’s like, “Let’s watch Phil snake this wire!” and then poof! they cut down to the basement, where Jim is pulling out the other end.

There’s a reason for that.

14

Hello. This is Greg. I will try and answer some of the questions and clarify the situation.

The wiring is going into a second floor bedroom. The switch is in the basement. We have already run plenty of Cat 5 up into the attic and across to the appropriate point on the wall. The vertical drop from the attic to the hole in the bedroom wall is probably around 8’.

“How did you get it two floors up to the attic yet have so much trouble running from the attic to the bedroom?” you wonder.

Simple. There’s a 2" conduit running from the basement next to the electrical panel straight up to the attic, carrying both individual romex for drops and a big-ass cable (that’s the technical term) for a subpanel in the in-law apartment. Being a conduit, it was blindingly easy to fish the first time, and I fished a permanent 2x pull string so I can pull new wires at will without needing to fish.

“You fool!” you now mentally shout. “How idiotic do you have to be to run UTP up an electrical conduit! That will never even work!”

In fact, I’m not using UTP. I’m using STP. Shielded, rather than Unshielded, Twisted Pair. Designed to function in high-interference environments. I’ve already got three drops run up this way and then down into second floor walls, have been using them for years.

“Okay, now I’m confused…” you think. “You made three drops already, and now one is suddenly difficult?”

The first three were into an internal (read, uninsulated) wall. My wife, however, has decided in her INFINITE wisdom to put her computer against the outside wall. So now I’m dealing with insulation. Which sucks. No visibility to help me at all.

Also, the first three drops are on the side of the attic which has bare stringers and insulation, easy to see where you’re going. The side of the attic over the bedroom has plywood flooring to allow you to, you know, use the attic and store crap in it. Lots of crap. Lots and lots of crap. Mostly my wife’s.

Someone mentioned getting on the roof or squeezing into crawl space or something like that. Not an issue. The attic is huge (walk-up) and we’re working under the peak of the roof, so not tight at all.

I agree that there is a barrier partway up the wall, although we’re probably not talking a firebreak, we’re probably talking an ‘X’ made of two 1"x2" stabilizers. That’s what I’ve seen in other walls in the house.

I’m through the barrier. The only way I’m not through the barrier is if it turned the bit and I ended up drilling horizontally or diagonally through multiple studs. Unlikely. The feedback from the drill would have been different, I think.

I did hit a second barrier about the height where the attic would be. I was having trouble with the drill - it would get jammed up, and I’d need to back it off, which I’d expect to happen if I was getting deep into thick wood or if it was REALLY twisted into insulation.

I have two drills to use here. One is an AC drill I inherited, probably made in the 60s, grinds away like a trooper. But no reverse so you can back off a bit.

The other is a cheap BJ’s NiCad. It has reverse so you can back off easily, but doesn’t have anywhere near the power to dig in in this situation. So I was switching back and forth between drills, trying to work up into the wood and then back off to clear the bit and the wood chips.

Then it started rattling metallicaly like all bejesus. I thought long and hard about it and decided I’d found a nail. So I decided to pull the entire bit out and think longer and harderer. And when I backed it out, I deduced that the rattling was the lower extender loosening from the upper half of the drill extender. (And when I say “deduced,” I mean “stared at the empty end of the lower half extender and swore mightily.”)

So that’s why there’s a bit in the wall. Completely normal. I believe the cause of the problem originally was that there’s a lot more wood between the top of the studs and the open space in the attic. I might even possibly been drilling into the vertical-triple-stud holding up the window in the attic.

So I drilled through the plywood floor in the attic to fish down using a simple 5/8 spade bit, about 6 inches long. I forgot that there is almost certainly another layer about a foot down. So when my wife tried to fish it down, it must have hit that, twisted around, and been messing around above the bedroom ceiling. I believe that’s where it found and hooked some romex, by the feel of things.

(“Why was she doing the fishing, if you’re such a computer expert, and what were you doing while this happened?” you wonder. I suckered her into it. The attic was cold and dark, and lying on the bedroom rug waiting seemed much more comfortable, so I mumbled something about listening and catching the fish as it came down to guide it to the hole and she bought it.)

FOR WHICH SHE IS VERY NICE AND IT ONLY WORKED BECAUSE SHE IS IMMENSELY LOVING AND TRUSTING.

(she coerced me into adding that)

So. This should answer the various questions. If any still remain, let us know.

I agree that going through the drywall is the easiest fix, and I’ve done enough drywall work that I could patch it up without too much difficulty. For exactly those reasons it’s the one I’m least likely to use 8).

The alternative is to pull up the appropriate plywood floor panel in the attic (which will require circular saw (fun!) because, being on the edge of the house, the appropriate panel extends under the 2x8 that underlies the attic wall studs). Then I can both free the fish (“Free Willie!”), might find the original drill bit (if it made it up that far), and can ensure that I drill down to the appropriate point to REALLY fish.

And since there’s no way in hell I’ll trick my wife into fishing again after this post, there’s a decent chance of success.

Having said that, I’m certainly open to corrections, suggestions, or other insights. (Note: I am also not stupid enough to use the circular saw at normal depth, which would slice stringers as well as plywood and possibly romex. I’ll set the cut height to about the depth of the plywood. And I only need one cut, the other three sides are the normal edges of the plywood).

(Further note: I was once stupid enough to use a circular saw to go through drywall in a similar manner. Do you have any idea how well a circular saw is designed to throw dust up and out? The entire room immediately dropped to about 2’ visibility, and that’s with a wet/dry vac and an air cleaner already running in expectation of a little dust).

15

Insulation works by having a small amount of stuff in a large space; it is more difficult for heat to flow across that space. If it is mushed up, with a larger amount of stuff in some space and no stuff in some space, heat flow is easier across that space.

16

Two stories of an exterior wall-I’m all for cutting a series of holes in the wall(s). Once you cut the first hole, the next few are no extra work. You have to set up to patch and paint anyway. I find a 2" hole saw on a drill cuts wallboard easily and neatly. That way you can use the original plug of wallboard to patch with. You can turn a frustrating day into a couple of hours of work. Patching can stretch out over several weekends. It is by far the way to go.

17

You guys are a really cute couple. I hope you get lots of help. And jeez, post more!

18

I was gonna make a typical craft crack about letting an architect do any real work, but Greg has showed up, so I’ll forgo that little pleasure. :wink:
Due to the insulation problem, I’d still go with removing a panel of drywall all the way down to where you’re going to install the box for the cable. This would also be a chance to add another outlet if you need it. I’ve done this, and it was no problem.
I cut, with a proper knife, down from a couple inches below the ceiling to above the floor exactly on center of opposite studs, then busted the drywall out. Very little dust, and I had a nice big place to work in. My buddy, a drywall pro who suggested this method, fixed the hole in an hour or two. Including beer time.

19

I’m really surprised how quickly some have defaulted to “tear out the drywall.” It’s got me wondering how many times they’ve done this. It may actually be what has to be done in the end, however…I’ve fished cable through walls dozens and dozens of times* and I’ve never had to tear out drywall. (while admitedly somes times it’s taken lots of effort to pull the cable through the wall)

Hanging, taping/finisjing and repainting sucks, and I’d certainly give it the old college try long before I started tearing out gypsum board. With an accesible attic above—that makes it easy to spot the wall----I’d be hard pressed to believe that it couldn’t be done.

Of course, YMMV.

*I do HVAV/Elec/Plumbing work as a contractor and have pulled cable many. many times.

20

If you have no problem running it in an interior wall, run it there and stick a wireless router on it.

  • Lazy Homeowner