I do not want to bog down the threads about Russia invading the Ukraine because presumably the people posting in those threads actually care about the issue. Whereas I am trying to figure out why I should.
I am the opposite of an isolationist. I realize that in order to be a world power America has certain responsibilities of engagement. I have no love for Putin nor do I have a problem with the Ukraine people.
I am dubious about any conflicts that America gets into in the name of humanitarianism because our track record shows that is usually an excuse to pick a side while not caring about issues that arise when allies are involved. My appetite for war was never very big to begin with, but the thought of us sending US soldiers to fight Russia seems like a terrible idea.
What compelling facts or evidence or opinions can you give me that can convince me that this is the Ukraine’s problem and not ours? How much worse off would America be if Russia marched into the Ukraine and took it over compared to how things will be if we intervene?
You will feel it in your wallet every time you go to the gas pump. I’m already paying 20-30 dollars more at the gas pump than I was two years ago. I don’t want that number to be even higher two years from now.
Putin has made cryptic references to Poland and Lithuania. I don’t know what that exactly means or if it’s reliable information but those are NATO countries. If Putin expands his military aspirations with those two countries, it means WW3. I would prefer that not to happen.
Except, we pretty obviously AREN’T getting involved except to push through some sanctions. Are you opposed to that? Are you saying we should, what, just let Russia take Ukraine without doing anything? I’m just curious, this isn’t an attack, but trying to figure out where you are coming from.
WE aren’t fighting, however, nor is there any call for anything like US soldiers fighting. We are, again, talking sanctions at the most. Even those aren’t full-on sanctions that could be leveled at Russia, mainly due to how much that would hurt our European friends. From the perspective of America and Americans, it’s going to be more a rise in prices of some things and a spectator event while we watch Ukraine be destroyed by its neighbor.
I suppose it depends on the world you want to live in. If you are good with a country like Russia invading and annexing a sovereign country and incorporating it into its federation (empire) by military force and think we should just allow that without even comment then it would be Ukraine’s problem and not ours. Of course, it will affect the other European countries, but I suppose you could make the same argument…that’s their problem, not ours so they need to deal with it. Myself, I think that when a country does something like this they should be called out on it, and sanctions are the least we can do.
In terms of a single event, it probably wouldn’t really affect the US directly. It WILL have an impact on Europe in several ways, so, assuming you think we should care about them that makes it our issue too.
We shouldn’t get involved militarily; that could lead to WW3. But we should do what we are doing – hard sanctions against Russia, and assist Ukraine in its defense as much as possible without sending troops (including sending weapons, logistical support, supplies, etc.). You should care because this is not terribly far from how WW1 and WW2 started (big aggressor trying to gobble up smaller neighbor), and this is right next to some NATO members (and if they are attacked that would necessitate US military involvement). And in general we should be on the side of democracies (Ukraine is much more of a democracy than Russia) when they are invaded by autocracies.
To me the US centric caring reason is the relationship Putin has with Trump, and Trump’s history of leaving ‘time bombs’ that Biden needs to clean up (such as Afghanistan pullout) and what this aggressive stance from Putin could mean if Trump can get back in as President. And if this was part of a time bomb from Trump, for Trump taking the presidency back and then ending any sanctions against Russia, and perhaps removing the US from NATO or at least any NATO response.
You ask a perfectly valid question, to which I have no good answer. But is it any different than much of any issue occurring in a country other than yours?
-The Saudi regime is anathema to just about everything America purports to hold dear (other than unbounded greed!). But are they good guys or bad guys? Should you care?
-Iraq? Iran? Afghanistan? What does it matter?
-How much will changing power of China and or Russia WRT the US matter in any of our lifetimes?
For many decently well off Americans, the vast majority of hot international issues really won’t have much effect on them personally. Yeah, may have to pay a little more at the pump. Might even have to drop one premium streaming system. The horrors!
None of this is to criticize you for asking the question. When we invaded Iraq, I opposed it due to the cost, the dishonesty, and the violation of a sovereign state. But damned if I can concisely identify how that really negatively affected me personally.
Why would Putin care? He’s not the living thing in question. I mean, sure, he was trying to take Ukraine without a fight, but that’s more due to the economic costs. It’s not like Putin has any problem taking out dissidents in his own country.
The only way to make him care is to make it not economic to continue. That could mean actually fighting back militarily, making it not worth it. But it also includes sanctions to remove the reason to go to war in the first place, i.e. the economy and power.
The OP and Putin share one thing in common: they seem to think that, if it’s people over there dying, it doesn’t really matter to them. Hence we have to come up with reasons other than loss of life to get them to care.
I think we should never stop questioning our nation when it participates in wars.
Even if Russia livestreamed its assault on half the NATO nations, I think it’s good to be asking questions.
Iraq II (more than Afghanistan, but I think it applies there, too) were a bulldoze. 43’s administration used every trick in the book to get us and the Fourth Estate to both:
pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, and
STFU and stop asking uncomfortable questions
I also think it’s legit to question the inherent inconsistency in letting innumerable people die/suffer all over the world … when "constitutional’ or ‘humanitarian’ principles are the reason given for the action du jour.
We should ask, “What’s different ?” “Why there ?” “Why this one ?”
We should be cynical … because there are enough of us to cover all bets (ie, being cynical and preparing to act). We should be cynical because – like COVID – this one shouldn’t break along party lines (if it isn’t right now, it likely will shortly).
Except, again, we aren’t doing any of the fighting, nor do we have any intention of doing so. From our perspective (either the US or just the west) this isn’t Iraq II, or Afghanistan, and no one is beating the drums of war on our side to try and get troops into Ukraine. From either party or from any of the NATO countries. At most, several NATO countries are, rightfully IMHO, nervous about their own security and simply asking the US and NATO to back them up in case Putin decides he really wants a bigger chunk than simply Ukraine.
But we’re being told to prepare for an increase in energy costs – a pretty damned regressive ‘tax,’ so to speak.
So there’s pain that many of us can shrug off (a nice position to be in) that may well be untenable for millions of Americans (and citizens around the world).
I’m not saying that the US having zero involvement would eliminate any impacts on energy prices of a Russian action in Ukraine. I’m saying that we’re all being asked to give as the collection plate is passed around.
The administration – understandably – isn’t discussing the likely contours of the economic impact – magnitude or duration – that we’re likely to see.
But particularly after the last two years … it’s not an unreasonable thing to ask.
ETA: Dopers probed pretty deeply when Ed Zotti started tossing out the idea of some sort of subscription model – lots of people started asking to see the books.
I think that might be a bit too facile. Perhaps, if we had presented a clear and undoubted position beforehand that we would respond militarily to an invasion of Ukraine, that might have prevented the invasion from ever occurring. And I fear that historians a century hence might look back at that missed opportunity as the last chance we had to prevent World War III.
The big reason is because it makes it clear that Pax Americana is ending. As our power deflates, a variety of actors are moving in to fill the void and pursue their own military agendas. Putin won’t just stop with Ukraine and China will certainly follow suit with an invasion of Taiwan. Americans reaped a lot of benefits in being the global superpower and those benefits are going away.
As is always the case when an empire recedes, like ours is doing now, there will be a period of intense chaos that could end in world war. This would be nuclear world war and it is coming at a time when global democracy and the planet are already rickety. You should care because it is a clear sign that the lives of lots of people all over the world, including young people in America, is going to be really hard for the next 50 years or so.
Whether or how to intervene in the Ukraine is a complicated matter and there might be no good answers. However any particular person comes out on that question is one thing.
But, a good person should care that the Ukrainian people are about to be subjected to the horrors of war and repression from an authoritarian power. A lot of people are going to suffer. That’s enough reason to care.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a
piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod
be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well
as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy
friend’s or of thine own were; any man’s death
diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and
therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee.
“What about” the concept that two wrongs don’t make a right? Just because something else bad happened before doesn’t mean that this current thing is not bad.
Even IF we all agree that any westerner ought to “care about” Russia’s most recent invasion, what ought that westerner DO about it?
And where should this rank among the other international and domestic philosophical concerns that westerner cares about?
For me it is hard to get beyond, “That’s horrible! But keeping up to date on developments will do little other than increase my personal stress levels and unhappiness. I hope/trust the persons responsible for addressing this do a decent job. I also hope/presume they know better than I.”
Pay attention. Watch what is happening. Remember this and how it went down. Think about it going forward. One of the worst things I see in a lot of this is people pay attention for a bit, then go back to their own crusades and inner battles and forget. Then, when something like this happens again, they are surprised and confused.
Other than that, I think westerners should be pushing their governments to make Russia pay as high a price as is possible wrt sanctions and economic impact. I’d like to say that will happen, but…I’m not sanguine about it. I think that western governments will be outraged and say a lot…and do a lot less, and in fairly short order go back to their own crusades and inner battles and forget all about this. Same as their people.
I think this should be a wake-up call, especially to Europeans, who should care a LOT about this…and be worried about the implications. Myself, this should rank at the top of any list of things westerners should care about, only slightly edged out by what we should be concerned with and care about wrt Taiwan being next on the list.
