Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond?

[Ryan_Liam]

Let’s hope this turns into Russias version of the Suez crisis.

[levdrakon]

@Ryan_Liam

I don’t see how you can say that a minority of right wingers overthrew the Ukrainian government, practically the entire country was in turmoil when Yanukovich was in office, he had to go.

It seems to me that this ‘right wing coup’ rubbish is just a convenient justification for Russian intervention and has now unfortunately embedded itself into part of the counter narrative, other than admitting really that this is an opportunistic land grab by Putin in order to avenge Ukraine’s government being overthrown, and making overtures to NATO and the EU, in other words, actually having some balls to defy not one, but two autocrats.

And for those lambasting the US about being hypocritical, since when did two wrongs make a right?

Here is an informative read about who and what the protesters actually are, and how much support they have among Ukrainians. One excerpt:

Moreover, the protests themselves are not particularly representative of the views of a broader Ukrainian polity. The claims that “the movement as a whole merely reflects the entire Ukrainian population, young and old,” find very little support. In this, as in virtually every area of political opinion, Ukrainians are pretty clearly divided. Surveys taken in the past two months in the country as a whole range both in quality and in results, but none show a significant majority of the population supporting the protest movement and several show a majority opposed. Recent surveys provide suggestive findings that quite large majorities oppose the takeover of regional governments by the opposition. The most reliable and most recent survey shows the population almost perfectly divided in its support for the protest: 48 percent in favor, 46 percent opposed.

The initial peaceful protests enjoyed wide support, but calling in the fascist muscle to overthrow the government wasn’t what Ukrainians wanted or expected.

[levdrakon]

Seems I forgot the link to the above.

Who are the protesters in Ukraine?

[Rick_Kitchen]

@Marmite_Lover

American CBS TV crew robbed by Ukraine MOI troops patrolling the Crimea border who stole their body armour and then put it on themselves!

Source?

[CarnalK]

@Rick_Kitchen

Source?

He’s been posting wild eyed “news reports” a bunch without any real links. Don’t expect any.

[Declan]

What would Hillary do ?

Declan

[msmith537]

Ukraine is weak! It’s feeble! I think it’s time to put the hurt on the Ukraine!

[levdrakon]

Don’t say ***the ***Ukraine! It’s against the law or something!

[NotfooledbyW]

Originally Posted by Dale Sams (Post 17155777) “You don’t just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext,” Kerry told CBS program Face the Nation." I found that ironic today. <“Cite”

(-John Mace 03-02-2014 02:51 PM) Me, too. I’m surprised none of the interviewers called him on this. <“Cite”

Since you agree, what was Ironic about it? It is no wonder the interviewers didn’t call him on it. There is nothing to call. The interviewers know the facts.

[aldiboronti]

@NotfooledbyW

Would this have been competent?
You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext … as President Bush did when he made a decision to go to war and then fashioned a support structure for that decision … and that was wrong."

Certainly. I would have admired Kerry for his honesty and that statement would have been quite correct.

[aceplace57]

This is what happens when the US has a weak and ineffective leader. Putin knows Obama won’t do squat. Empty words from a shell of a President.

I predict now we’ll ignore the defense treaty the US and Britain signed with The Ukraine in 94. It’s not worth the paper it was written on.

The two Western powers signed an agreement with Ukraine in 1994, which Kiev’s parliament wants enforcing now. The Budapest Memorandum, signed by Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma – the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine – promises to uphold the territorial integrity of Ukraine, in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons.

[NotfooledbyW]

Originally Posted by Dale Sams (Post 17155777) “You don’t just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext,” Kerry told CBS program Face the Nation." I found that ironic today. <“Cite”

Originally Posted by John Mace (Post 17155809) Me, too. I’m surprised none of the interviewers called him on this. <“Cite”

Sec Kerry, didnt you vote for the authorization to use military force in Iraq? Wasn’t that in 2002, that is “the 21st century”? “Cite”

(-OldOlds 03-02-2014 03:44 PM) Thirded. I generally like Kerry, but I don’t know how he kept a straight face on that one.

What’s wrong with a straight face when Kerry said what he said? He did not say it was justified when anybody else invaded a country on trumped up charges.

[Rick_Kitchen]

Kerry is going to Kiev on Tuesday.

Apparently there are anti-invasion demonstrations going on in Moscow, and the demonstrators are being arrested.

[aceplace57]

Putin clearly has grand ambitions. He’s either stopped now or after he reassembles the Soviet empire. It’s the world’s decision. What happens today could very well impact history.

If he takes The Ukraine then why stop there? None of those former Soviet states have any hope of defending themselves.

[OldOlds]

@NotfooledbyW

What’s wrong with a straight face when Kerry said what he said? He did not say it was justified when anybody else invaded a country on trumped up charges.

Fair enough, but I don’t see a tacit admission of the US’ mistake in that statement, and I would not assume Kerry (or any other politician) to see the similarities.

But really, that is just another hijack. The following questions remain:

Are the Russian activities in Ukraine justified?
I say no.

Is this really about empire building (or similar Russian self interests)?
I say yes

Should other countries, including Russia, stay out of this event at least until such a time as there is a situation that genuinely warrants intervention?
I say yes, and if preventing a crisis or civil war is the goal, this could have been handled by multinational forces including those from the EU and Russia. Russia’s premature and unilateral actions indicate its true motives.

But still, i dont see a larger war coming from this. Ukraine may descend into hell, however.

[John_Mace]

@NotfooledbyW

Since you agree, what was Ironic about it? It is no wonder the interviewers didn’t call him on it. There is nothing to call. The interviewers know the facts.

You’re right. Kerry never approved the invasion of another country in the 21st century on trumped up charges. What was I thinking? :smack:

[RickJay]

@aceplace57

This is what happens when the US has a weak and ineffective leader.

Were Eisenhower and Johnson weak and ineffective? I don’t recall the USA jumping to help Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

This is sad but true; there isn’t jack shit the USA can do about this in terms of an immediate response and there is no reason Russia would ever have thought otherwise. Economic sanctions are the only option.

[NotfooledbyW]

@aceplace57

This is what happens when the US has a weak and ineffective leader. Putin knows Obama won’t do squat. Empty words from a shell of a President.

What crisis/trouble-spot in the world would make Putin think Obama was weak?

[OldOlds]

@aceplace57

This is what happens when the US has a weak and ineffective leader. Putin knows Obama won’t do squat. Empty words from a shell of a President.

I predict now we’ll ignore the defense treaty the US and Britain signed with The Ukraine in 94. It’s not worth the paper it was written on.

Ace, is it your contention that we should be prepared for war with Russia over this? That we engage in a conflict on a scale not seen in generations? Because I don’t think any of the hawks really understands the scale of a war with Russia. I actually think the west would win a conventional conflict pretty easily, but not before unimaginable destruction and loss of life.

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

You’re right. Kerry never approved the invasion of another country in the 21st century on trumped up charges. What was I thinking? :smack:

You are right, I am right. Kerry never did approve of the invasion of another country on trumped up charges.

***“I believe that the evidence is mounting that this administration made a decision to go to war and then fashioned a support structure for that decision.” ***-Jul 11, 2004 … RALEIGH, N.C John F. Kerry

Kerry campaign says Bush misled US on Iraq - The Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/07/11/kerry_campaign_says_bush_misled_us_on…
So tell us when you think Kerry ‘approved’ it.

.