There is almost never a “proper” way to carve up chunks of a country and give it to another. The way that generally is done is called “war”.
Yes, there is always a proper, right and just way to carve up any nation. It’s called a fair referendum. It has been done a few times in Europe during the last decades and is going to happen more in the coming. Good thing too. A nation is not a religion. It’s just a way for a group of people to conveniently organise themselves. If the organisation no longer serves their needs or wishes, they should break it up and do it in a way that does.
I’m sorry, but are you saying that because the institution that conducted the poll is headed by this woman, it is to be presumed a fake and can be disregarded?
To cedibly make that argument, you would have to show that Pew polling is generally unreliable and politically-motivated. I’m unwilling to take that on faith. From what I have seen, it is generally well-regarded.
Yes, I call that evidence. So far, your only counter to it is to impugn the credibility of the pollster.
I’m saying that it is some evidence that they are, indeed, “a minority position artifically bolstered by Russian forces” [note: NOT the same as your summary: “… they must be Russian intruders”. See the ‘subtle’ differences between what I actually said and your summary?].
Add to that lots of other, previously-existing evidence to support the same conclusion. This ‘insurgency’ is unlikely to have real legs, without massive Russian medding and support. Why? Because, assuming the polling data is accurate, the majority even of the allegedly disaffected minority does not support it, that’s why.
It is interesting, then, that (a) poll data (yes, I know you don’t believe in it) indicates such a “fair” referendum would fail in this case; and (b) Putin is no longer pushing for a referendum?
Coincidence?
Like none.
(OK, about 300 for counter drug. So, like none).
You should check out Fort Bliss. Its like a stone throw away from Mexico. Fort Hood is also suspiciously close. You should probably remove those just to be sure NATO doesn’t get its knickers in a twist or something.
Now we’re just getting silly. That would be a fair argument if the United States had recently annexed, say, the region of Chihuahua. But as things stand, US troops near the Mexican border are not the same thing as Russian troops near the Ukrainian border
All institutions are to be considered impartial from the get go. Any institution headed by a person with a known radical bias should be considered even more impartial. Any institution which distribute information in a warlike situation should be approached with utmost care, since everybody knows what is the first victim of wars. Any survey in an unstable region should be considered suspect, since it’d be extremely difficult to obtain good quality data to base any conclusion on. No I don’t trust the survey. Not a bit.
Because where I come from evidence need to be a lot more concrete and tangible. Colin Powell had more solid evidence than that when he declared that Saddam was loaded with WMD. Even if the poll was 100% accurate it says absolutely nothing about what troops Russia may or may not have anywhere on the globe. And when the claim is extraordinary or grave the evidence need to be extra super bulletproof. All you can have are some rather wobbly conjectures. Evidence of Russian troops in Ukraine would be the capture of such troops.
Btw. I’ve seen lots of the same kind of proof that the USA has troops in Ukraine. I regard it with the same reliability.
As I said, when NATO counts troops in military barracks that have existed since 1945 as evidence of Russian massing troops then they are full of shit, just as we can all agree that it is silly to claim the USA is massing troops near the Mexican border because of Fort Bliss.
I think Putin has better intel than an American think tank, so no, not really interesting.
Besides Putin got what he came for: Crimea and a federalization of the rest of Ukraine. He doesn’t want any more and has little respect for the will of the people. A referendum at this time would be an inconvenience for him.
I on the other hand do not base my opinions on the official memos of neither Putin nor Obama. I still think an orderly referendum ought to be carried out. The will of the people is always to be sought. If it gives a strong mandate to Ukraine, then more power to it.
biased, not impartial.
So … you have nothing. As I suspected. Just hand-waving away inconvenient evidence.
Polling data is subject to certain inaccuracies, which are usually stated up front when dealing with reliable polls. That is not the same as simply assuming from the get-go they are worthless, as you are doing.
I said nothing whatsoever about “Russian troops in Ukraine”.
Pew Global is one of the more reputable polling organizations. One can maybe argue with the poll methodology (if that was shown in the poll), or error margins, or questions asked. But, as Rune is doing, to dismiss it as if the numbers were just made up is ridiculous.
The borders that separate anti-Maidan regions from pro-Maidan regions moved east last February because of pro-Maidan acts that included violence against the central government. It should be noted that the anti-Maidan public had no participation in the violence that escalated in Kiev on Maidan Square.
Oh, please. The idea that this is likely to be peacefully done is nonsense. For every Czechoslovakia there are 10 Yugoslavias. And Czechoslovakia was not carved up with parts given to another country.
The “proper referendum” is going to involve the entire country, and there just aren’t that many times when an entire country feels like jettisoning big chunks of itself.
If you can show that the Islamists in Egypt were located in a separate region of Ukraine and spoke a different language and had separate cultural ties from the rest of Egypt - you might have a point. But you can’t.
I don’t see them as pro-totalitarians as you do. And anti-Maidan rebels had nothing to do with the violence in Kiev that started the entire crisis.
The MB and the Morsi government were passive about killings of minorities in Egypt such as Shiites and Coptic Christians…
And you want to compare the Russian speakers in Ukraine to the Islamists in Egypt. I won’t go were you need to go.
They want a proper referendum for their region. The Constitution was dropped to take the Russian speaking industrial region to the EU against their will and away from Russia. They can drop the Constitution to allow a regional referendum to avert civil war.
This was my impression as well.
Though of course, if anyone has actual evidence that they just make shit up, I am open to hearing it.
Nice of you to say so and all, but your opinion hardly matters. I’m not talking about what I want, but what I’m afraid will actually happen.