Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond?

[BrainGlutton]

According to the German intelligence agency BND, the Ukrainians are now using American Blackwater/Xe/Academi mercenaries.

[BrokenBriton]

I think you’ll find the puppet just nods when he’s told and the Americans will be using them.

[BrainGlutton]

@BrokenBriton

I think you’ll find the puppet just nods when he’s told and the Americans will be using them.

For what?

[NotfooledbyW]

@Ibn_Warraq

What makes you so certain that Ukrainian and Russian are seperate “languages” rather than “dialects”.

My college roommate was a Bulgarian who like all Eastern European during the Cold War was taught Russian. He was never taught “Ukrainian” but when he sees Ukrainian politicians giving speeches of reads a Ukrainian newspaper he understands what’s being said.

Russians I met at school said the same thing and pointed out that the policy of the Russian government was that Ukrainian and Russian weren’t even seperate dialects much less languages.

They compared it to British English and American English, which have a number of differences yet aren’t regarded as seperate languages.

Why do you feel they are not, at best, seperate dialects, but seperate languages?

Do you have some expertise in the subject that would cause you to say that?

Are you certain there aren’t different spoken dialects of Arabic within Egypt?

Since you insist “Russian-speakers” within the Ukraine need to be given more autonomy do you feel the same regarding “Sicilian-speakers” in Italy and “cockney-speakers” in the UK or “southern-speakers” in the US?

No need to be an expert. Wikipedia fills in enough clues that they are separate languages:

Developments under Poland and Lithuania
In the 13th century, eastern parts of Rus’ (including Moscow) came under Tatar yoke until their unification under the Tsardom of Muscovy, whereas the south-western areas (including Kiev) were incorporated into the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. For the following four centuries, the language of the two regions evolved in relative isolation from each other. Direct written evidence of the existence of the Ukrainian language dates to the late 16th century.[19] By the 16th century, a peculiar official language was formed: a mixture of Old Church Slavonic, Ruthenian and Polish, with the influence of the last of these three gradually increasing. Documents soon took on many Polish characteristics superimposed on Ruthenian phonetics.[20] Polish rule and education also involved significant exposure to the Latin language. Much of the influence of Poland on the development of the Ukrainian language has been attributed to this period and is reflected in multiple words and constructions used in everyday Ukrainian speech that were taken from Polish or Latin. Examples of Polish words adopted from this period include zavzhdy (always; taken from old Polish word zawżdy) and obitsiaty (to promise; taken from Polish obiecać) and from Latin raptom (suddenly) and meta (aim or goal).[18]

Significant contact with Tatars and Turks resulted in many Turkic words, particularly those involving military matters and steppe industry, being adopted into the Ukrainian language. Examples include torba (bag) and tyutyun (tobacco).[18]

Due to heavy borrowings from Polish, German, Czech and Latin, early modern Ukrainian (prosta mova) had more lexical similarity with West Slavic languages than with Russian or Church Slavonic.[21] By the mid-17th century, the linguistic divergence between the Ukrainian and Russian languages was so acute that there was a need for translators during negotiations for the Treaty of Pereyaslav, between Bohdan Khmelnytsky, head of the Zaporozhian Host, and the Russian state.[22]

Ukrainian language

AP and PEW use the phrase Russian Speaking East and Russian speakers when referring to Ukrainians.

Poll: Most Ukrainians want a unified country, even in the troubled Russian-speaking east

Published May 08, 2014. Associated Press

DONETSK, Ukraine – A new poll finds that a strong majority of Ukrainians want their country to remain a single, unified state and that this is true even in the largely Russian-speaking east where a pro-Russia insurgency has been fighting for autonomy.

The poll by the Pew Research Center in Washington found that 77 percent of people nationwide want Ukraine to maintain its current borders, while nearly as many, or 70 percent, in the east feel the same. Only among Russian speakers does the percentage drop significantly, but is still over half at 58 percent.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/08/poll-most-ukrainians-want-unified-country-even-in-troubled-russian-speaking/

[NotfooledbyW]

@John_Mace

No worries. I really did not want to get into “saving your ass” territory, but keep in mind that this could spill over into a NATO country, and then we’re pulled in whether we want to be or not. Putin is a wild card here, and he’s all over the map (pardon the pun). He seems to be testing things to see just how much land he can grab. And the more that we hear people cheerleading the secessionist movements of “Russian speakers” in Ukraine, the more I worry about the Baltic states, Estonia in particular.

What is with this constant ‘cheerleading’ accusation. Are you not in sympathy with the EU and US position that Russian speakers currently as citizens of Ukraine must obey the dictates of the EU and USA and obey the central unelected interim government’s demands to end their protest and submit to an unelected givernment’s authority.

I favor the EU and USA staying out of it entirely. Quit supporting an unelected government that should have respected the regions of Ukraine that did not wish to be forced by violence against a legitimate government to abandon ties to Russia and be swept into union with the EU.

[XT]

[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
What is with this constant ‘cheerleading’ accusation.
[/QUOTE]

Hm…where, oh where can we see an example of what JM is getting at? I don’t know…oh wait! Let’s look in the same post!

I favor the EU and USA staying out of it entirely. Quit supporting an unelected government that should have respected the regions of Ukraine that did not wish to be forced by violence against a legitimate government to abandon ties to Russia and be swept into union with the EU.

See, this is called ‘spin’. And it’s a form of ‘cheerleading’. You are, once again, spinning the story so that it puts the best shine on it for your buddy…that Putin guy. You know, the guy you’ve been ‘cheerleading’ for in this entire thread.

[Latro]

@XT

See, this is called ‘spin’.

Are you being serious??

[NotfooledbyW]

@XT

See, this is called ‘spin’. And it’s a form of ‘cheerleading’. You are, once again, spinning the story so that it puts the best shine on it for your buddy…that Putin guy. You know, the guy you’ve been ‘cheerleading’ for in this entire thread.

When you can’t refute the facts as presented you call it spin. Presenting facts is not cheerleading.

[NotfooledbyW]

Russian speaking Ukrainuans vote for separation from the west.

The region is home to 6.5 million people, with a high proportion of Russian-speakers who argue that their interests are not served by Kiev.

http://www.europeonline-magazine.eu/mobile_article.php?article_id=335166

[NotfooledbyW]

The separatists said voter turnout exceeded 80 per cent, with a “yes” vote of nearly 96 per cent in Lugansk and 90 per cent in Donetsk.

Eastern Ukraine‘s pro-independence leaders said the next step would be to build government and military structures for a “New Russia” in the region.

http://www.europeonline-magazine.eu/mobile_article.php?article_id=335166

By setting up their own government and military structure, are the anti-Maidan Russian-speakers doing any thing different than the Iraqi Kurds did when they split off the northern provinces from Iraq?

[CarnalK]

That link doesn’t work for me.

Surely not even you are buying the results of this farce of a referendum.

[BrokenBriton]

Pretty meaningless event, certainly not a referendum.

[XT]

@Latro

Are you being serious??

Why yes, actually, I was. You telling me you don’t see the spin in his little story there? Notice anything about WHY people might have been protesting, or WHY they got so riled they went after the president? Wonder if it could have had anything to do with the fact that the old president ordered his guys to start shooting the protesters? Naw, it must just have been a spontaneous coup, probably by the Americans and their EU lackeys to disenfranchise the good peoples of the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine from happily joining the good Soviet Union…er, I mean the Russian Federation.

Now, I’m sure you noticed MY spin there, yes? Yet you ask me if I’m serious about pointing out NFBWs. Curious…don’t ya think?

[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
When you can’t refute the facts as presented you call it spin. Presenting facts is not cheerleading.
[/QUOTE]

What facts? Your little spun narrative there HAS been engaged in this thread…this fucking idiotic 62 page thread…several times. You’ve handwaved it aside, or simply ignored it, in your quest to get this little blurb to become reality. You’ve been spouting the same line of horseshit for nearly 62 pages. Others have tried to engage you, but you simply can’t BE engaged in a good faith debate. So, I’ll merely content myself with pointing out your cheerleading and spin and leave it at that.

[XT]

@NotfooledbyW

http://www.europeonline-magazine.eu/mobile_article.php?article_id=335166

By setting up their own government and military structure, are the anti-Maidan Russian-speakers doing any thing different than the Iraqi Kurds did when they split off the northern provinces from Iraq?

Funny how the vote (another over 90% in favor :p) flies in the face of the polls that had been conducted by Pew, no? I mean, in the polls, they were looking at figures of between 60-70% in favor of staying in the Ukraine…and now, with the vote, they are getting 90+% in favor of ‘independence’. That’s some turn around. Guess those pro-Russian groups were REALLY successful in getting out the word and turning around the vote, right?

Keep on cheer leading there, NFBW.

[Malthus]

@CarnalK

You’re right. That was silly of you.

Okay … I would LOVE to hear your version of how the US got involved in WW2 - presumably one in which the Japanese did not attack the US and Germany did not then declare war on the US.

[BrainGlutton]

@BrokenBriton

I think you’ll find the puppet just nods when he’s told and the Americans will be using them.

For what? Blackwater/Xe/Academi are mercs, their agenda is a paycheck.

[Malthus]

@Terr

Ok I see that lenta.ru has reported about it. Here is their translation:

“Those aggressors [Nazis - terr] motivated their conquest not only with the goal of grabbing the land and enslaving the people, they also proclaimed slogans pretending that they were all about freeing the nations that lived on the land that Hitler tried to conquer. If you read history, we see that one of his first slogans was - freedom for people from the Communist yoke, freeing people from the tyrant Stalin…”

I don’t see anything either objectionable or factually incorrect in the speech. Anyone?

Woah, you mean that the outraged people proclaiming that he’d praised the Nazis were out-and-out lying to us?

I’m just shocked. :eek:

[CarnalK]

@Malthus

Okay … I would LOVE to hear your version of how the US got involved in WW2 - presumably one in which the Japanese did not attack the US and Germany did not then declare war on the US.

Look, all I can suggest is that you read up on the events leading up to the war. The US was quite involved before any attacks or declarations of war - no conspiracy theory required.

[Malthus]

@CarnalK

Look, all I can suggest is that you read up on the events leading up to the war. The US was quite involved before any attacks or declarations of war - no conspiracy theory required.

I am, in fact, quite well-read on the subject.

Claiming that the US only got involved in WW2 because of “perceived self interest, at least on the part of the elites” was your statement. I think it was an absurd one, and it is not supported by the fact that the US was “involved” in various ways with supporting the Allies prior to being attacked itself.

[NotfooledbyW]

@XT

Why yes, actually, I was. You telling me you don’t see the spin in his little story there? Notice anything about WHY people might have been protesting, or WHY they got so riled they went after the president? Wonder if it could have had anything to do with the fact that the old president ordered his guys to start shooting the protesters? Naw, it must just have been a spontaneous coup, probably by the Americans and their EU lackeys to disenfranchise the good peoples of the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine from happily joining the good Soviet Union…er, I mean the Russian Federation.

Now, I’m sure you noticed MY spin there, yes? Yet you ask me if I’m serious about pointing out NFBWs. Curious…don’t ya think?

What facts? Your little spun narrative there HAS been engaged in this thread…this fucking idiotic 62 page thread…several times. You’ve handwaved it aside, or simply ignored it, in your quest to get this little blurb to become reality. You’ve been spouting the same line of horseshit for nearly 62 pages. Others have tried to engage you, but you simply can’t BE engaged in a good faith debate. So, I’ll merely content myself with pointing out your cheerleading and spin and leave it at that.

What facts are you trying to refute? You ought to at least make an attempt. The facts are that violence erupted from both sides and many police were killed defending government property. My main point is that the anti-Maidan folks who reside in the eastern region of Ukraine were not involved in the violence on Maidan Square at the end of last year and start of this. That violence does not appear to be acceptable to them and its none of our business to insist that they accept it.