Personally, I don’t see how you could possibly cite someone’s anti-abortion stance as proof he’s a fascist.
I quoted it to you then you gave some tldr crap back. I don’t need more context lessons.
The gentleman in question is also, as I wrote, a member of Svoboda.
You know, the party that handed out books by Joseph Goebbels as late as 2013.
Perhaps, but I don’t think we’re looking at a full-scale occupation and subjugation here. More like a continued slow encroachment into Ukrainian territory, followed by some shenanigans that installs a pro-Moscow government which then ‘negotiates’ a withdrawal of Russian forces in exchange for closer economic and military ties with Russia. Think Czechoslovakia in 1968. The Soviets were happy with it being an ‘independent’ state so long as the government remained firmly in the Soviet sphere of influence. But when liberal reforms started happening, a show of strength put fear back into the population, a new Soviet-friendly government was established, and the Soviets withdrew. But it wasn’t a full scale invasion/toppling of the government. The Dubcek government actually managed to hang on for 8 months after the invasion, before finally toppling and being replaced by a pro-Soviet government.
That we can agree on. Because even if Russia withdraws from the areas of Ukraine outside the Crimea, Putin now has a pretty big gun that he can put to the heads of the Baltic states and Poland, and can use it to influence their foreign and domestic policy unless they feel very secure.
But the U.S. has to do more to protect Ukraine, because U.S. credibility is on the line here, as are the nuclear non-proliferation goals of the world. The U.S. promised to protect Ukraine in exchange for its giving up its nuclear missiles. If it just sits back and lets Ukraine be partitioned or taken over without consequence, you can bet that leaders in every other such country with similar assurances are going to be thinking about building nukes.
I guess several Republicans in the United States are fascists since they oppose abortion in all cases.
But no, just pointing out someone is in Svoboda and has a government post isn’t really evidence they are a fascist. Svoboda started out as a racist far right party but has largely reformed. They kicked out a previous leader that made racist comments directed at Russians and Jews, and have abandoned their previous Swastika inspired logo years ago. They’re definitely a European far right, nationalist party, but I wouldn’t call them fascist. Certainly not if we aren’t going to call Russia’s ultra nationalist and majority Yedinaya Rossiya party fascist as well.
There’s way more right wing conservative fascist bullshit going on in the US than I’d like too. I hear “death to fags” talk in the Stupid Republican Idea of the Day thread all the time. Check out the Right Wing Watch website. It’s something we need to watch like a hawk, but it’s not invade and occupy time yet, in the Ukraine or the US.
Counterpunch.org is a crackpot truther website which regularly hosts Holocaust Deniers and various other nutty conspiracy theorists.
It’s hardly a credible website and I’d recommend against using it if you want to be taken seriously.
Like this one, you mean?
Ukraine: the Enemy of Your Enemy is Not Always Your Friend
Atack the article, not the source. Just sayin’
I don’t think anti-abortion or even anti-gay sentiments make you a fascist. However… Svoboda is ultra-nationalist and wants to nationalize major industries and ban sale of lands to private individuals. When it was founded it adopted as its symbol what looks to me like a stylized swastika. Their party endorses the criminalization of anti-Ukrainian speech, they want to erect trade barriers to ‘protect’ Ukrainian goods, they want the state to own the farmland and lease it back to farmers, yada yada.
All in all, that’s a close approximation of a fascist agenda, and would be even if they were totally supportive of abortion and gay marriage - which they’re not. They even want to criminalize ‘promotion’ of abortions.
Now, I believe it’s true that they have moderated their beliefs in order to gain more support and become electable. But clearly many of the people in positions of power in that party have some pretty extreme views.
The new 1/2 President Yatz threatened to burn the ground under the feet of Crimean separatist “leaders”. That sounds like a threat to kill whoever defied the Ukraine Constitution. But Yatz got the his office by abandoning the Ukraine Constitution. He should be so tough on himself and the llegislatures that appointed him. That kind of inflammatory talk is not conducive to a negotiated settlejent of the Crimea vote for separation from Ukraine.
Bill Criminalizing ‘False Anti-Russian Information’ in the Works, Report Says
Does this mean Russia is run by fascists?
Yes. Or close to it. But not just because of that bill. Fascism is an ultra-nationalist movement that putatively supports private ownership of the means of production but exercises government control over it. Russia has been trending towards Fascism for a long time. Putin is clearly fascist by temperament.
Fuck me! I actually agree w/Sam! :eek:
Russia’s fast becoming one of the most fascist nation-states in the world.
Ah then you agree with him that Russia is run by fascists.
If one is consistent in one’s beliefs, yes. Watch RedFury furiously backpedal.
Hold on. A party has a Swastika-style logo. A Swastika-style logo. Then, they change their logo. We’ve changed, they say. And you… Believe that?
A party distributes books by Joseph Goebbels as late as 2013. As late as 2013. A year passes, or less than a year. Oh, that was then, they say. We’ve changed, they say. And you… Believe that?
Maybe it’s because I belong to a minority myself, but to me, when a fascist party cleans up their act, calibrates their PR machine a li’l bit, and starts rising in the polls - this makes them more scary, not less. I do not believe that they get softer, or kinder, or friendlier, or more tolerant. Lipstick on a pig and all that.
And hey, one more thing. You know that bit you wrote about how “they kicked out a previous leader that made racist comments directed at Russians and Jews”? That guy - Oleh Tyahnybok - remains the party’s leader to this day.
Does that not bother you? Does that not bother you in the least?
I never ever said that the fact that there are fascists in Ukraine’s government makes it OK to “invade and occupy.”
This I did not know, thank you.
I will try to check to see if the specific information I quoted is correct or incorrect. If it turns out to be incorrect, I will apologize to you all forthwith.
I would point you to the really, really big country that is taking over parts of a neighbour it deems to be populated by its own ethnicity, that is run by kleptocrats, that forces the media to parrot nationalism essentially 24/7, that is increasingly cracking down on attempts to speak out in dissent, that is actually reducing the human rights of its own populace (ask a gay Russian), that continues to increase military spending, that just supervised an obviously crooked “referendum” - Russia shows most of the basic elements of a fascist state. My cite is every newspaper in the world. This is not an easy thing to miss. You might as well ask for a cite that water is wet.
What you call crap was clearly the truth and the written and recorded fact. You cited one sentence out of context to claim that I wrote in effect that the Ukraine government was run by fascists. But that statement you cited was a setup for my full and consistent argument on this topic has been that the ‘fascist angle’ that Russians and pro-Russians believe and are using is propaganda and not a fact. And I’ve written that they are not right about the fascists.
Truce? Ihor Tenyukh is Ukaine’s acting Defense Minister.
.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSBREA1Q1E820140316?irpc=932
What does this mean? Is there some Negotiating going on?